Bach FAQ 135
Hans Bach 1 to 4: Is Hans Bach from Nürtingen a Member of this Family?..
Hans Bach. Is there one? Or are there even two Hans Bachs? In the Bach family, which used to be called the “Bache”? The Bach Genealogy – now only for those interested in Johann Sebastian Bach – is a compilation of all of Johann Sebastian Bach's relatives. It is very, very complicated. Like everything else related to the super composer. An example?..
There isn't just one so important Johann Christoph Bach. That is, the Christoph who was Johann Sebastian Bach's oldest brother and whom Johann Sebastian moved in with after both parents died. There were actually 17 of these Bachs with this first name, Christoph, or rather, Johann Christoph Bach. Well ... there aren't that many Hans Bachs. Unfortunately for Bach fans who are interested in the history of the family:..
There is a Hans Bach, of whom there are even two portraits, who does not belong to this Bach family at all. Not at all means: not even remotely. So not at all. He is the so-called “Nürtinger Hans Bach,” who was born around 1555 in Andelsbuch in Austria, relatively close to Lake Constance. This Hans Bach died in Nürtingen in early December 1615. He belonged to a family of farmers that can be traced back to around 1451. Even today, you can still find a heavily weathered gravestone with some of his sayings on the west wall of the Protestant cemetery in Nürtingen..
Even today, there is a website dedicated to Hans Bach, which presents a “traveling cinema” and a “culinary cinema” under his name: And there is the “Hans Bach Lichtspiele.” It is an association for the promotion of film art in the Bregenzerwald, in Andelsbuch, Austria..
What a mess. If you don't just focus on the “Hansens” of the family, but “dig around” in the early history of the musical family: Hans Bach, a ( ! ) minstrel: That's the musician from Nürtingen who doesn't belong to this Bach family. Hans Bach, the ( ! ) minstrel, is the second musician in the largest and most famous family of musicians in the world, and he also once lived in Wechmar..
There is even a second picture of Hans Bach from Nürtingen. And the gravestone in Nürtingen also exists. His origin is noted on it. In addition, the date of death on December 1st or 3rd, 1615, and the remark “more than 60 years old” is also noted. This suggests that he was born in 1555. © Many thanks to the Nürtingen City Archives for allowing me to publish the photo on the top right..
Next, there is another Hans Bach, the third one, who is really not interesting to anyone else on earth ... except me. It is Hans Bach, discovered around 2015 (... or rather rediscovered, and only by me), who once asked the pastor in Gräfenroda for his blessing for his son's emigration..
Okay ... so ... one Hans Bach (... the one from Nürtingen) is definitely less important in the “collection.” And that is very significant. Because even in Bach's genealogy, you meet the “wrong Hans Bach,” the one from Nürtingen. The one who does not belong to the family of musicians. Every now and then. And there, of course, this Hans Bach causes confusion. Because he ... does not belong to these Thuringian Bachs..
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The history of the Bach family's musical legacy begins in the Ancestral village of Wechmar near Gotha..
The Most Important Bach in the Genealogy of the Family of Musicians..
Wer ist denn dann der wichtigste Bach in der Bach-Genealogie? Also in der Genealogie der „musicalisch-Bachischen Familie“ von 1504? Wait a moment … 1504? Richtig … die Bach-Geschichte beginnt nicht in Wechmar. Und nicht mit dem Jahr 1619. Allerdings … beginnt dort und in dieser Zeit vor 1619 die Geschichte der musikalischen Bachs..
Wechmar is – and above all remains – the Ancestral Home of the most famous and also the largest family of musicians in the world. But ... what now? The emphasis is on whether one is looking for the documented beginnings of this family, which was called Bach and is still called that today ... or for the member who was the first in this clan to make music. Veit Bach was the first to play music. Veit Bach the Younger, most likely. But we will never know for sure..
This is where the first two musical Bachs baked bread. And just like the other tasty dough products back then were called: Today it is the Bach Ancestral Home in Wechmar near Gotha..
Why is there such a hubbub? Because there was a lot of confusion until 2022. What concerned the beginnings of the Bach family, that is, the one that was not yet making music at that time. Please distinguish between the two ... my heartfelt advice here. For 99.99 percent of all fans interested in Bach, it is absolutely correct that Veit is the forefather of the Bach family of musicians and died in Wechmar in 1619. This amateur musician, of whom Bach reported that his ancestors handed down that he played the Cythringen, an early form of the zither. While, before, or after he was grinding grain in the mill, which can also be found in Wechmar, to the beat of the mill wheel..
No picture from back then. But thoroughly a Bach work. Veit Bach, the father of Hans Bach, the minstrel, can be seen in front of the Veit Bach mill. I imagined this scene. And I am also a member of the family. It was colored in, electronically of course, by Renate, my wife. And my idea was previously brought to life by Briana Bach-Hertzog in the USA. She is much, much more closely related to Johann Sebastian Bach than I am. © Briana Bach-Hertzog..
This Veit Bach, probably Veit the Younger, came from Ungern. In short, this location was called Ungern. The home of these Bachs' correct and complete name is Ungerndorf. It is located near Laa on the Thaya in Austria. From there, Veit fled to Thuringia. Alone, or with his son, or with his father, or with a large part of his family..
That's right, Ungerndorf with an “ e. ” That's where they came from, these Bachs. That's what it says in the “Ursprung” too. Well, okay, it says “Ungern” and not “Ungerndorf.” But that's what the place was called back then by the “Ungerndörflers.” It was just shorter..
Is what has been handed down true? So how many Bachs set off toward the northeast? No. Because in Wechmar, he is “suddenly” there, so to speak: Hans Bach. The son of Veit. Together with his dad..
Veit could have been born in Ungerndorf, in the neighboring village of Hanfthal, on the road, or even near Wechmar ... this is not known. And there are no documents to indicate any of the above options..
Actually, Hans' real name was Johannes. You know that already. But back then, people shortened it and called him ... Hans. Officially, he was also known as Hans, the minstrel. Hans ground grain with his daddy and ran a bakery with him. This took place in what is now the Bach Ancestral Home (... see picture above). Hans Bach, or Johannes, was already playing professionally. That is, in Gotha, Eisenach, Arnstadt, and several Bach locations, as well as other communities. Incidentally, Gotha is only an hour or 2 away from Wechmar on foot. Of course, that's still the case today, even though the distance has become shorter because the communities have naturally expanded over the past 400 years. So, from one end of the place to the other..
This Hans Bach is without a doubt the most important Hans in the Bach genealogy: “Hans, the minstrel”. That's quite an exciting title when you consider the work of around 200 musicians to date. Of course, female musicians from all branches of the family are also included: Johann Sebastian Bach's second wife, Anna Magdalena Bach, also came from a family of musicians and earned almost as much money at the court of Köthen as her future husband. Even today, nearly a dozen Bachs earn all or part of their living from music..
Hanfthal in Austria is located a short distance on foot from Ungerndorf. In the Hanfthal council records, there is an entry referring to “our” Veit Bach. However, according to Johann Sebastian Bach’s “Ursprung” and verbal reports, Veit immigrated from Ungern to Wechmar in Thuringia, so after his time in Hanfthal, he moved to nearby Ungerndorf..
Amateur researchers and “real” Bach scientists discovered as early as the middle of the last century that another Hans Bach could now officially be added to this family. However, the “art officials” in the GDR (... back then Eastern Germany) Ministry of Culture did not “recognize” these discoveries at the time, even though the evidence was indisputable. As a result, this knowledge was effectively lost again, that is, forgotten..
Since the days of the internet – when this text was written, it was around 70 years later – the first Hans Bach has been “haunting” almost exclusively on Wikipedia. There it also says that the Nürtingen Bach could have been Veit’s brother … what … a load of nonsense! Or a cousin … well, ultimately we are all related to each other. It was agonizing speculation for everyone who really set out or has set out on the “search for the Bachs' roots.”..
Of course, it didn't look like this in Veit Bach's time. In Ungerndorf around 1600..
How do I know the order of Veit Bach's places of residence? Well, Veit is mentioned in a council protocol. He was living in Hanfthal at the time. So if we know that Veit returned from Ungern according to the “Ursprung,” then he must have moved from Hanfthal to Ungerndorf in the meantime. And Hans, the minstrel? No one knows. Because he “suddenly” appears in Wechmar as a returnee. Just like that. © Michael Lehner..
Page 1 in the council protocol... © Michael Lehner..
... and the “rest” about Veit Bach on page 2. © Michael Lehner..
Page 1:
Veit Bach sesshhafft zu Hanifftall,
Erscheindt für annen Er,,P: Waisen zu
Han,,Nifftall abfertigung
samen Raht, sambt Peter Pränngel alls
Nifftall abfertigung seinen Erbettenen
beystandt, begerennt,
Nachdem er sich unlanngst, mit anner Wit,,
frau zu Hanifftall beehelicht, unnd zu Hauß
Niedergelassen, wär er an jetzt seines
Vätter: unnd Guetterlichen Anerstorbe,,
nen Erbthaillß, so ani Ersamer Rath
bey hannten bedürftig, derowegen
gannz gehorsambs vleiß bittendt, den,,
selben vermöge Aufgereichtes Vertrag,
Datieret den 16 May Anno 76 sein
wierdt, ervolgen zulassen, hierrauf ani
Ersamer Rath die Sachen frei die Hanndt
genommen, unnd gemeltten Bach, seinen
begeren nach, umb alles „bewegege“ Rait,,
trug gethann, hat sich befunden, das
Ime für sein Erbliche Vatter: unnd guet,,
terliche Portain zuestendige ist, 45 R
als, daran er zu Zwayen unnbescheid,,
lichemallen empfanngen. 25 R, bleibt
Im noch in Richtigen Rest zuerlegen 20 R
als, Nachdem er sich aber ausser vorweis,,
sen Aines Ersamen Rahts verheyrath,
unnd sie alls seine Pflegvätter beseyten,….
Page 2:
gestellt, welches Ime …..
unlanngst Außganngner Klay,,
sterlichen Genneralle zuthain
Khaniß weegs gebüret, derohal,,
ben Er von ameni Ersamen Rath
anndern zum Exembel umb 5 R
in die Straffertkenndt, unnd von
obbemellten 20 R as zu Hanndes
behalltten, die übregin 15 R aß
aber, gegen gebreuchiger Verzicht
Quittung zuegestelt worden,
2 Octobris Anno 91t:
And... were you able to read it? It's actually not worth translating. It would take our Bach genealogist Christian Hoske a whole hour to do so. And we would still be none the wiser about Hans Bach. The point? A Veit Bach appears in documents at the appropriate time in Hanfthal, then known as Hanniftall. And Hanniftall is still located a short distance from Ungerndorf, then also known as Ungern..
Klären, ob Hans der Spielmann einen Sohn mit dem Namen Hans hatte, dann wären es 4 Hans.
The famous Veit Bach Mill in Wechmar. Well ... world-famous for Bach fans who are also interested in the beginnings of the musical family..
So, to summarize Bach's genealogy, there are three Hansens worth mentioning in this famous family of musicians, and perhaps a few more who are less significant: First, there is Hans the minstrel. Second, there is his great-great-grandfather Hans in Gräfenroda. Third, there is Hans, a son of the above-mentioned minstrel..
And “then there was” Hans, a minstrel from Nürtingen ... who, despite the great pictures above, which serve as such beautiful illustrations, does not, not at all, not in the slightest belong to the Bache Family of Musicians..
Hans Bach in Wechmar, Hans Bach in Nürtingen ... I Wasn't the First!..
At least two people have studied the subject intensively over the course of more than a century..
You can only find this source by searching Google extensively. Namely, in the Bach Yearbook from 1910. For those who are really interested in what it says, i.e., the exact wording, this article has already been selected. But perhaps my summary will suffice..
Hier fehlt noch die deutsche PDF zum Spielann.
More than 110 years ago, another Bach fan (... like myself) wrote an epic essay about the two paintings attributed to Hans Bach. However, even after reading sixteen pages, the reader, for a long time, is still unable to determine whether the author believes that the two famous paintings depict Hans Bach from Wechmar or Hans Bach from Nürtingen..
I also raise significant objections to this text about 15 times. Until the author then – quite suddenly – makes a clear and definitive decision in the last paragraph: This minstrel, or rather the Nürtingen Bach, depicted in two etchings, is not a member of Johann Sebastian Bach's famous Bach family..
For you, “gray on beige,” so to speak, as proof, but also so that you don't have to “work your way through” another ultra-long text..
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