In fact, there is a very special reason for us to celebrate. As early as the beginning of 2011 our search for Veit and the Bach before Veitbach started with the genealogy around this family. Many, many dear people we met during our adventure. In the country of the Bache, in Germany, in the Netherlands, also in the USA and beyond in many other countries of the world. Unfortunately, some already no longer live. At this point, we would like to take a closer look, especially for our dear Ms Helga Brück from Erfurt (... look at the video, paragraph 5). She would have been proud of our results. With her writing style she would have had her problems as a teacher. We do not just believe that, we know that!
Yes, this site is actually strange. First of all, in the linguistic usage of 1750, it is worthy that you remember them. But at the same time it is also strange, in the sense that we mean it today. This page of my homepage is with her text is as long and detailed as a whole book, namely round 19,000 words long. For comparison, the biography about Bach for children I wrote is 38,000 words and that is 172 pages of DIN A4. This page - on which you are currently reading - is for your fun. The fun of reading, the fun to be with my research almost as well. In the middle of adventure brook genealogy. However, if you would like to get "straight to the point" and quickly find out what the genealogy around Veitbach now looks like - now by now - click here. Then, however, the reading on this page is only a fraction of that much fun. And yet this fraction remains really readable.
It's the only page on my home page in two chapters. And it is written at two different times. The first chapter reflects the state of research before the cut-off date. It is all about what Veit Bach might have meant, when he told of Ungern. From Ungern with an "e". We will examine whether Veit could not have meant Bohemia or Moravia, or Transylvania, or Hungary. For where is Ungern? Is it a village or a city. Or a region? And we want to find out what Bach scientists and biographers, hobbyists and some of Bach's "present" have "made" of this piety. The second major theme in the first chapter is Pressburg. The Pressburg, which has now appeared in many, many publications for more than 200 years. We want to examine a guess quite carefully. The second chapter is about three truly breathtaking oddities. While I am writing on this page, you are now reading the story of the brook. And you can read it today "realtime". Of course it is so sensational only for round 10 to 20 people on the earth, namely those who are intensively concerned with the genealogy of the brook around Veit. But for the - ... it is something terrific. How can something happen? A page in two chapters, written before a deadline, and then further on? And why is there such a strange "introduction" at all?
Our search for the origin of Veitbach, from 2010 to the middle of 2015, lasted for five years. Of course, we have already found a lot of information which actually existed. But: we have just found it again - so: recovered. If we had known about Yo Tomita and the 54,000 publications on Johann Sebastian Bach and his biggest musician family of all time, we would have been able to save hundreds of hours. But that is the way life is now and then. In September - and quite exactly mid-September 2015 - is the decisive day. The chapter, better the page to Veit Bach, is "on my agenda". The necessary biographies are ready, the Internet is scoured, but the documents received are not even roughly overflown. But they are at least there. We had received them. Of course, the text in my head has already begun, so this page is now being created by Veit Bach from Wechmar. First of all, Ungern is my destination - hunger with an "e". Line by line becomes text and as everything becomes whole sections. Next step: the three photographs obtained are the following: to read them carefully is the job. As it turns out, there are three photocopies with incredible content. We had received them from three dear people, whom we must have obviously impressed with our research. And we find together that we have never found the decisive clues in our search in church books, nor church records, but that proper people were of crucial importance.
And what is the result? That I do not describe the first sections despite the latest findings. Why not take part in the transformation of my research? You are amazed, as I was astonished, when, for the first time, I read the contents of the documents. We know about the explosiveness of the first two years - but this document is only conclusive with the discovery of the second and the third find. It is the documents (... which we only found, or who found it, who owns them) about three different topics. However, all three are closely interwoven. And so, in this first chapter, please do not take any hasty conclusions. As in a particularly exciting crime thriller in Part 1 is hardly anything as it seems. And yet it is right. Why I do not simply describe the entire page, you will also find out about this in the course of the page. So have fun with an adventure in Indiana Jones style. Read more below the ad.
99 Music Calendars, Composers Calendars and Bach Calendars
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1735 until 1963 +
2010 until 2015
Teütschland: Googled once to Teütschland. Why? Because a conscientious researcher can come to the following consideration: whoever writes Teutschland and thinks of Germany, he also writes Hungarians and means Hungary. And how many search results did I find until the cut-off date? No one to Teütschland.
The actual beginning of the genealogy of the brook is now discovered. 2015. Or gladly: Re-discovered. And you mean exactly that time before Veitbach, would you have read? The basic values discovered, they all already found? Then they are perfectly correct. There was - at least "somehow" - but "so correctly" again not: the beginning of Bach's genealogy before Veit Bach.
Veit Bach and Wechmar - this will forever mark the beginning of the musician family. Veit was the first brook to perform. That was the way it was. And that will remain so.
However: he was not officially, this new beginning of the Bach genealogy - just before Veitbach - at all. Never. One read it - here and there - but not in current biographies, with one exception. It was also possible to find these basic values in electronic form in the large ancestral portals, here and there. But always: either there were no satisfactory, verifiable references to the sources or the correctness (... for example, simply because the electronic space is not provided in the software). And the statements remained trustworthy. Or, the proof is already there, but it is actually "burial": Buried in tons of assumptions to the many caspars, the Veits, the Hansens and the Hans Veitsens. Garniert with felt thousands of annual figures and assumptions about this and that degree of affinity.
And that is why we have now vigorously recycled, better: first recovered and then vigorously "ausgemistet". For you, dear Bach fan. And we finally added what you have certainly never read. In fact, the truth about Veit Bach actually goes down. A maximum of five names of Bach's children are known to the average fan of the master. Who cares whether the uncle of Veit could have been his brother, nephew, or father, if the essentials are hidden?
First, I leave out all the names and data and assumptions that have nothing to do with the actual grandfather (3 Uren) of Johann Sebastian Bach ... - and then what remains? The extract from a name and the important argument - exclusively - precisely for this purpose. Once there is now the result as a conclusion (... you can go back to the fast lane, but they do only when you read the book first in a book). Below you can read all the many exciting facts "en detail" - for your pure entertainment - not at all hoppla-hopp. So there is then - quite officially now - what you may have been looking for as long as we did. Or even longer: Here you can find - and everyone interested in it - now the official sequence in the genealogy of the musician family Bach. From the first known member of the family to the first musician Veit Bach to the composer from Eisenach. The genealogy according to Johann Sebastian Bach is well known. And now please "drum whirl" and "Tadaaa ..."
Hans Veit Bach
(... born somewhere in Thuringia, died abroad, southeast of Thuringia, date of birth and place of birth unknown).
( ... geboren 1551 in Janeegg/Böhmen; gestorben 1619 in Wechmar, Thüringen)
(Born 1613 in Wechmar, died 1661 in Arnstadt, grandfather of Johann Sebastian Bach)
Johann Ambrosius Bach
(Born 1645 in Erfurt, died 1695 in Eisenach, father of Johann Sebastian Bach)
Johann Sebastian Bach
(Born 1685 in Eisenach, died in Leipzig in 1750)
* = Found by our genealogist Christian Hoske. We now examine whether Hungary was in the document, or whether Hans was born in Bohemia, and it was thought of as a matter of course to Hungary. Or whether there is again the so-called mystery-haggard.
Uralt - or ... with more reverence - very historical: the so-called entrance book from Wechmar: from here everything is clear with the Bach. Hans and Veit belong together, you can see the "order number 180". It is great alphabetical ... we would have liked a year but better.
About. Reluctantly. Hungary. Pressburg. Bratislava. Thuringia. Bohemia. Hungary, Ungernland, Ungerland. Next: This page of my homepage and this topic around Veitbach is my hobby in the hobby: Where does Veitbach come from? So where did the Bach come from? Was Veit Bach really the forefather of the musician family? This page is still fresh in September 2015. And on her there are some mistakes here and there. This is how it always happens: with a new homepage page and at the same time with a new topic. But, to this point, not many of my esteemed visitors are lost. And those who have found the way here are welcome to look over these mistakes. Anyway, from the second chapter, it is only interesting, which is very important for me. And the ... - one can read quite well with few mistakes. And even if everything is not yet 100% really complete. Also the individual references to passages in the mentioned books and documents, which represent and prove everything: they will only find you gradually on this page. And, of course, my assessments are also changing - constantly - because I "do not" squeeze my insights. If the facts change, then the content on this special page also changes. Just on this page all alone for Veitbach only. Just ask, for which Veit Bach? And? Please expect sensational. Very seriously.
Veit Bach from Pressburg in Hungary? What a nonsense. As we shall see. Please read on.
A small, hearty request: if you have been able to get exactly this page of my homepage - or are you interested in the fact that this is exactly the right genealogy of the brook, that is the musician family brook - then you could actually help me - if , Yes if you have your own private homepage: by linking to this site from your homepage. Then "climb" my site via Veitbach on Google. And you just find them even better and faster. Thank you very much. By the way, you are cordially invited to rewrite with me the history of the brook from Thuringia - around Veitbach - and to publish it together with me in the future. That is, if you do not just disagree with me, I can also prove that. So if you go to Ullersdorf, for example - or fly and drive. And there in the church archives rummage. And in doing so, find the clues in a historical church book. And they photographed. And we talk about it. I do not care what the truth is. Here, at any rate, she simply belongs. The truth around Veitbach, to the children of Veit Bach, the grandchildren of Veit Bach, his parents and also the grandparents.
How wrong you can be! When we began our search for a connection to Johann Sebastian, we were sure: it would only work through the father of Veit Bach. We found it now. But a very different way finally led to the goal. In the picture you can see the authors of this cheeky view on genealogy before Veitbach: Peter Bach jr., Even before his youth really began.
First of all a congratulations to all who wanted to find out more about Veit. About "our" Veitbach. About Veitbach, the oldest of all Bach musicians in Thuringia. You, dear visitor, have now arrived at the goal of your research and you no longer need to search for more pages on the Internet. Also no archive to rummage, no further opinion, no research to start and above all not to study Wikipedia. Because you yourself can and should form your own opinion - your very own opinion - if you do not want to share my conclusions from all documents, books and reflections with me.
Why it is like that? This question is more difficult to answer than to satisfy your knowledge of Veitbach. If you want to know why you have actually reached the goal of your research on Veitbach, then you have to read "unfortunately". Section by section, argument by argument, and you can also view original by original. And that is exactly.
Not Veit Bach, not Hans Bach, not Caspar Bach - but an exciting moment in the search for ancestors: with pictures makes all double fun: 3 Bachs!
In the last century the Bach-Science had in principle agreed unanimously that Veit Bach was the progenitor of the musician family Bach. And that Veitbach is precisely the Veitbach, which is listed in the church books of Wechmar - died in 1619. And on the fact that this Veitbach does not belong only to the evidence, but to documentary evidence. OK then. Or not? This page on my brook homepage deals explicitly with the ancestors of Johann Sebastian Bach, who formerly lived as exactly the Veitbach listed in the last section. It is important to note the following: First of all, join in with the fact that there is really a confused confusion with Veit and Hans. Such a man with the name of Veit, died in 1619, and the father-in-law of the Bachs in Thuringia: that sounds perfect, clear and crystal clear. If one examines the time around 1619, however, one finds - in Bach's genealogy - incredibly many and confusing references to the names Veit, Hans, Hans Veit and Caspar. Too many? Yes, too many! And with them it becomes - again again around Bach - wonderfully chaotic and also very unclear.
This page on my Bach homepage, however, deals explicitly with the ancestors of Johann Sebastian Bach, who formerly lived as exactly the Veitbach listed in the last section. It is important to note the following: First, join in with the fact that there is really a confused mess with Veit and Hans. Such a man with the name of Veit, died in 1619 and the father of the Bachs in Thuringia: this sounds perfect, clear and crystal clear. If one examines the time around 1619, however, one finds - in Bach's genealogy - incredibly many and confusing references to the names Veit, Hans, Hans Veit and Caspar. Too many? Yes, too many! And with them it becomes - again again around Bach - wonderfully chaotic and also very unclear.
This page wants to achieve a goal: free of economic and personal considerations, no requirement of a state (... for example the GDR) (... we come later) excluding the opinion of individual persons (... except them Would now really be conclusive, but as often contradicted on this page) and with a really healthy mixture of "clear head", healthy human understanding and found documents determine where the Bachs really came from. We also want to include quite recent documents: documents that were only found in the last 50 years - that is, long after 1950 - and which therefore could not be taken into account precisely by that of the great biographers who were closest to Genealogical: Charles Sanford Terry from Great Britain, the best of the famous biographers in the discipline Bach Genealogy. But we also want to examine the convictions of all the great biographers on the topic: what they wrote - practically always on the first few pages in their books - testify to what they were convinced of. Christoph Wolff - for example - is currently completely out of this early period: his time journey begins with Ambrosius, far from the problematic epicenter and "Minenfeld" of the Bache in Thuringia. Similarly, Helga Brück, in her book "Von der Apfelstädt and Gera to the Missouri," which Veitbach mentions just once, does not address the topic, that is, the origin of the brook. Two key points are especially for my service for you: First of all, apart from my opinion on Mr. Korabinsky's "performance", you will not be able to read who the people of our time are simply wrong or even nonsense: simply out of fairness because 99% Of the achievements of these authors are highly valuable. Only two conclusions are the exception: they are once Quark and once just simply refuted.
Secondly, without buying 243 books, you can make your own picture. Whether my personal conclusions are also nonsensical, or just wrong or even wishful thinking. Because of me there are all the facts around Veitbach for you today and here also the sources on this page. And to "read it yourself". Not just as footnotes and not with my expectation of your blind trust. By the way: Of course you would not have to buy 243 books - round ten to fifteen would already be enough.
Albert Schweitzer's original biography: Forkel and Dr. Albert, however, are both wrong - as we shall see. In some cases, Dr. Schweitzer, however, was right: Veitbach did not come from Hungary. But with the fixed back and forth over the German-Czech border is ... - unfortunately - ... just the same! And how does he get it?
Not even in my briefing it is really easy. But ... - let's get to the point. The Bachs are from Thuringia. There were quite a few of them in the 14th and 15th centuries. But they did not make music at all in the first generations, as far as we know. 1504 is the first date that can be associated with this family of musicians. In Thuringia. And only a very small number - namely, a single large, successful biographer - is a "fact" that is "transported" at all, in order to give you an opinion of your own. None of the great biographies (... with one exception) mentions them, the so-called "church penitential", which arose at least eight years before the list composed by Johann Sebastian Bach in 1735 - Bach himself called it the "origin of the musical Bachisch Family "- and in her Veitbach as the father of the dynasty. The day on which this letter was written - the so-called "church penance" - is the 15th of July, 1727 and the author, and a Bach - himself a musician - refers to the "world (S) Bachische Familie, (...) which can have her genealogy from Ao. 1504 (...). " For what it was, you can read it here. With one click. Not today.
So to the "origin of the musical-Bachische family" from the pen of Johann Sebastian Bach. He wrote this list in 1735 - at the age of 50 in Leipzig - and Bach fans call it "origin". Are the Bach's in the origin, or were they, in or from Pressburg? That would be Hungary. No, they did not come from there, because they came from Pressburg is mischief. Real mischief. No thesis, no hypothesis. But then? Mischief. And from Pressburg we also read nothing in the origin. Not even from Hungary. But how many theories are there then on the topic of where Bach once came from? Quite simply: None. There is one, only one scientific proof that you can understand today, but later, even yourself. And this is - as of now - valid until proof of the contrary. In the Wikipedia, where so many great things are 100 percent correct (... without nonsense now), the subject of Veitbach is only pure nonsense. And it is also a very, very confusing pure nonsense.
But how many theories are there then on the topic of where Bach once came from? Quite simply: None. There is one, only one scientific proof that you can understand today, but later, even yourself. And this is - as of now - valid until proof of the contrary. In the Wikipedia, where so many great things are 100 percent correct (... without nonsense now), the subject of Veitbach is only pure nonsense. And it is also a very, very confusing pure nonsense.
A heartfelt thanks to the city and county archives in Arnstadt, for the fact that we were welcomed and photographed so we could get goose bumps when you turn paper over 300 years old. In this case the church penance of 1727. Written by a brook, who earned money with music. There were two famous musician families named Bach ... - and not related? Quark! The decisive term is in the letter above lines 6 and 7.
So to the "origin of the musical-Bachische family" from the pen of Johann Sebastian Bach. He wrote this list in 1735 - at the age of 50 in Leipzig - and Bach fans call it "origin". Are the Bach's in the origin, or were they, in or from Pressburg? That would be Hungary. No, they did not come from there, because they came from Pressburg is mischief. Real mischief. No thesis, no hypothesis. But then? Mischief. And from Pressburg we also read nothing in the origin. Not even from Hungary. But how many theories are there then on the topic of where Bach once came from? Quite simply: None. There is one, only one scientific proof that you can understand today, but later, even yourself. And this is - as of now - valid until proof of the contrary. In the Wikipedia, where so many great things are 100 percent correct (... without nonsense now), the subject of Veitbach is only pure nonsense. And it is also a very, very confusing pure nonsense.
Topp-biographer and musicologist Philipp Spitta to Pressburg and that is very particularly polite.
Yes indeed, it's Ungern with an "e". So it's getting complicated for English speaking folks. Today Hungary is Ungarn and it's written wirh an "a" in the middle of the word. An "e" makes speculations possible and that adds to the problem, that the borders of Ungarn = Hungary changed often in the past. How ever, all agree that the word in front is "Weißnaecker with an "ä", which is "white baker" translatetd word by word.
Then he comes from Hungary? This Veitbach from Wechmar? Nope. The fact is that he came back. Right, this is not in the "origin". And why did he come back? Because the Bach had been living in Thuringia for so many decades, and also: 1504. You remember? The "Church Penance". She describes the Bach family in Thuringia. And that there were two world-known musical families with the names of Bach, who were not even related to all the superfluity, they do not believe themselves. He, Veit Bach, came somewhere from the east, or rather the southeast. Back. Seen from Thuringia. And there lay (... also) Hungary, which at that time, and perhaps also earlier and later, consisted of those countries and countries, regions, landmarks and places, but sometimes also from others. Everything "right down" was "somehow Hungary", which one sometimes also called and wrote Ungern. And Hungary and Hungary. That's what we want to do. Can this stop? Somehow Hungary down there right?
Once again Teutschland? Because it sounds so beautiful? And because it was so beautiful. And ... - actually: have found another one by chance. You mean that is not "ü"? I also thought first. But look at the line under 'times. Exciting but just as much: the connection between Ungerland and Bohemia. This is certainly the meaning of today's Hungarians (... not within today's borders, of course). We are concerned with these three motifs about the proximity of the six concepts of Hungary, Hungary, Hungary, Hungary, Hungary and Hungary. For: we want to clarify whether Bach was a Hungarian and Hungarian. And? Look for it: how often you can find Teutschland or something similar on the document.
Yes, our Herr Korabinsky. Great, top performance! 7,000 brook biographers are genreted and hobby genealogists around the world. Congratulation! Or is it almost a conspiracy theory.
At some point, however, everything was finally "much more Hungarian": a certain Mr. Korabinsky, residing in Pressburg, who was only just right and wrong with his own life, claimed that in Pressburg there were a few of Bach and the bakers. They were called Pach and their first names, Orban and Andreas, Paul and Georg. Not even these first names can be found again later, although in the case of the Bachs from Hans and Veit the same given name was very big fashion. And precisely because of these meager basic values, exactly were these "Pachs" the family of the later super-composer? Why that is a terrible nonsense and that really most Bach researchers, Bach biographers and Bach genealogists are my opinion, of it also later.
But now the exciting happens. Veitbach - that is, our Veit Bach - comes from Hungary, only since Bach's death in 1750, according to Nekrolog. And later somehow also from Pressburg. How beautiful, when everything is so clear. But what a nonsense. That the first famous Bach biographer Forkel this quark however "simply so" takes, this imagination so really really salonfähig. More than 200 years later, finally, the real genealogy finally comes into the limelight - albeit very carefully. Curtain so now for the true story of the Bach from Thuringia.
Dr. Frederik Federmayer would have found the matching entries in Pressburg! If it were there. And of course he would have sent it to me. Just like the others below. At "give trouble" it is not really failed. Thanks, Dr. Federmayer.
Veit Bach in Pressburg? Indication error! At least one "real" Bach in the old Pressburg here? Also false! And the best with Federmayer's research, for which we would like to thank you here? One (1) Orban Pach. Well, this fits 100% to Korabinskys "sensational discovery" in Pressburg.
Yup, we didn't go the conveniant way as early as in 2011 - with the research for Veit Bach and his father.
Why Now? Why Here? Why Not Earlier? The Secret Around Veit Bach
Without having all the sources at the same time and in front of each other, it is difficult to find the actual path that this family has taken through the centuries. An occasion to explore their own background and affiliation (clear, I mean my ancestors and my past) is also useful and also extremely helpful. And if you also have a publishing platform on which you can present the results, then it is tremendously exciting to explore such an ambitious project on the edge. For me this was, and still is, the "history of Veitbach, died 1619 in Wechmar".
The laurels in this game however, many others. There is at first and completely crystal-clear: a Herr Abendroth living today - the Abendroths and the Bachs were already friends about 500 years ago. Helmut Karl Abendroth, therefore. From Arnstadt. But then, of course, the thanks go to the explorers around Bach in this century, such as Helga Brück, Karl-Hermann Frickel, Evelyn Odrich, Helga Brück, Ronald Bach, Ed Bach, Helmuth Kreuch, Annemarie Niemeier and, of course, Mr. Kock and his niece Ragnhild Seal. Professor Kraft and the Bach author and Bach scientist at all, Christoph Wolff, have also contributed exceptionally. In this way we come to the results and specialists of the last century - roughly - with the names of Karl Geiringer, Charles Sanford Terry, Albert Schweitzer, Percy M. Young, of course Spitta, less Mr. Forkel, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach and, of course, the composer Eisenach himself, Johann Sebastian Bach. Not separately listed here are around a dozen other researchers and local scientists, who tried successfully on site.
The author of this homepage - right, I - really only counts "2 + 2" and mixes everything with a little healthy human understanding. But he does more. For the really interested the whole background is summarized for the first time. The explanations to the individual conclusions, the criticism and you "experience" the documents. Documents about documents.
* Percy M. Young counts in his book - all felt - all the Bachs between the North Sea and the Mediterranean, calling for all possible areas, and everywhere. Then he nebulises the whole thing with components such as "could" and "perhaps" and finally leaves somehow open in the end.
** Wolff takes position twice in his life. At first he assumes in 1983 that Veitbach immigrates from Hungary. In his biography in 2009, however, he circumvents the mine field and leaves the origin of Veit completely "outside" and does not express itself.
Again, and as it is not quite clear, it should be mentioned here that this section deals solely with whether Veit Bach came from Hungary. Where, and especially in our investigation, this Hungarian was at that time, that is, what was meant by Ungern, is explained by another chapter on this page. And most importantly: apart from Forkel, none of them is enthusiastic about Pressburg as the place of origin of Veitbach. In other words, pressburg is not a suitable city for Hungary as a country of origin.
This is convenient: in Presburg - short, crisp, with a "s" and ... - wrong! Johann Nikolaus Forkel in his book (above) with thanks to Johann Matthias Korabinsky: so you can save yourself a lot of cumbersome and time-consuming research in and around Bratislava.
Out of the blue, that is to say sometime in the year 1789, when no pig was interested in Bach at that time, because the interest in the person of Bach and, above all, his music was in a decade-long sleep of Sleeping Beauty, this Herr Korabinsky came up The grandiose idea to "find" Bachs all of a sudden in Pressburg. Besides the thousands of other inhabitants of other names also. Sure, he found some Bach - why not? From a certain size of a city into which Germans emigrated, as later to America, this is not surprising. There are Phil, Tommy, and Felix Bach ... - no, I'm going to be silly now: how nice that this is not a dissertation. They were, therefore, not even the same as Bach's generations after generations with a single exception with their first names. And two or three were also bakers. That's it. Just do not believe that Korabinsky was after that - he was 200 years before us right at the source - and it had burned a few times less then, and in no one world war had something been lost, so ... Believe, Mr. Korabinsky Had perhaps knocked at the authorities after his "sensational discovery": at tax authorities, real estate offices, or in the local churches or the archives on the spot? To find a single proof of when a Bach bought, sold, died or born, or tax paid or not? Or godfather has been or perhaps haunted? Nothing at all. All the documents would have been explored for Korabinsky from home. How often my wife and I went to Erfurt, Wechmar and Arnstadt to research. Mr. Korabinsky lived twenty minutes from all the press archives. On foot! Well, maybe a few yards away. Actually, he did: less than nothing. Well, it seems to me as if today I publish a book, then perhaps 25 copies print. And then I write in: Gaius Julius Caesar was born in Alaska.
In addition to this, Korabinsky has not made himself known in the archives of the city of Pressburg, but also that biographers and researchers do not follow him. The greats of the guild, Spitta, Geiringer, Kraft, Young, Terry, Frickel, Siegel and Koch - Schweitzer as well as, and not least, Wolff were not just scribblers, they were or are scientists. And there were people: who would not have decorated themselves with the discovery of the document proving this ulcer? A leasing contract, a purchase contract, taxes on income or the possession of a property, documents of professions, births, baptisms - own as well as godfather - deaths, including so many deathbirths, naturalization, expatriation found. Bratislava (Pressburg) would today be one of the Bachstadt - and what a - any Bach fan on site such an entry would have found. For the marketing of the city it would be a sensation: Bratislava, the birthplace of the brooks and the most important composer of all time. But neither before the Iron Curtain era nor after the fall of the Iron Curtain did a person close to the musician near the person emerge. Dr. Federmayer, the Hungarian scientist and genealogist has been researching - in matters of Bach - and he did not find anything. Forget it as Pressburg. A great city - and it is called Bratislava today - but it is not a Bachstadt. And it was never. And so we also forget Hungary, as we know it today as a country of origin!
Veit Bach decamped from Hungary: Only 15 years after Johann Sebastian Bach wrote down in 1735 that his Urur-Opa had to escape from Ungern (... with an "e"), the first three Bach authors agreed: from Ungern? Since we make Hungary very easy.
Well, I can write it. Then it is "somewhere"! And if you really do not want to pay any attention to the birthplace of Gaius Julius Caesar - and just write a biography about Julius ... - then write the next stop simply 'times. By the way: all Bach biographers wrote off each other. But: more or less and always in other words. The one highly qualified - even with fresh discoveries - the others in the sense of our "Vanity Press" today more than ever: thus the ambition and the vanity to have written a book.
So, Mr. Korabinsky invented it, thought it well and wrote it down. Forkel then found it as well and took over. Geiringer, however, disagreed. Spitta also contradicted this and even emphatically. And Schweitzer, on the other hand, kept up his own theory and remained the only biographer who liked this version: Out of Teutschland, back to Teutschland. How he got there, remains his secret. The most famous Bach biographer, Christoph Wolff, is also exciting. If he had been convinced of the provenance from Pressburg, he would not have spared the topic in the current edition of his most bi-biography in the world - but he did. Bach author and Bach-genealogist Helga Brück left it away and so many other Biograf also. In the case of Wiki, of course - if only in three theories and unfortunately ... - is missing the thesis that our veit came from Papua New Guinea. Because, in fact, there is no less exciting than the origin from Pressburg, purely scientific. By the way, Bratislava is Bratislava today. Strangely, of course, Forkel's note reads also briefly, and briefly ... it could not be any shorter: Veitbach was a baker in Presburg in Hungary. Presburg with a "s". This is not the origin, so only Mr. Korabinsky invented it. No footnote at Forkel, no reference, no research. Nothing. Nix ... - but also nothing.
Veitbach from Pressburg? This presumption exists. Again, it is a completely unfounded presumption - so already for the general public since 1802, namely since Forkel published his first - one of the famous biographies about Bach. Until then finally 1879 Spitta published a next biography, a second great litter to Bach's biography. Even in two volumes! A whole of 77 years "Bach from Hungary" ... - of course, this burned itself collectively and globally in the brains of the readers. It is especially important to note that the so-called "Bach Renaissance" began with Mendelssohn Bartholdy's re-launch of the St. Matthew Passion in 1829, and that more and more people were enthusiastic about the star from Eisenach all over the world and were languishing after reading about him : Just after the biography of Forkel with the nonsense about Pressburg. For a full 50 years, this mischief was read, told, learned, and spread to Pressburg. Then finally, finally, Spitta came. Too late, Pressburg sits deeply anchored, like the ferruginous spinach and the beech in the thunderstorm.
Spitta was also very interested in genealogy. He was also probably already researching in Thuringia, and was the first biographer to introduce the so - called "church penance", a clear reference to Bach in Thuringia in 1504 penance?). Spitta calls Gräfenroda, he describes it as Gräfenrode. He is correct, although he also lacks the decisive documents, in order to name the nonsense at the time and conclude him: a stay of the Bachs In Pressburg. Spitta is scientifically cautious - not like I am here - and formulated that Pressburg was very unlikely to be the Hungarian place ... - at the origin in "Ungern". He does not just say it is unfounded, he writes, it is "completely" unfounded. Politely, just one of the great Bach biographers, he does not go over Koranbinsky or him through the cocoa - as I do on this side.
Next. The following Bach biographer is Charles Sanford Terry. He is not necessarily the genealogist among the Bach-lovers, and he already begins with a false quotation: Veitbach does not come from Hungary, but from Hungary. That Hungary is meant is okay, but - unlike this homepage, which does not claim scientific correctness (... but it is probably in most segments) - ... we have to put it on the gold scale and Veit Came not from Hungary but from Hungary. However, we forgive Terry generously this lapsus, because we all like to spread what is our opinion. Terry even writes of a "guilt" of Korabinskys that the "legend" of the origin of the Bache from Pressburg could arise. Korabinsky was misled, as Terry writes, because a single Bach was then called Johann, Veit had certainly been a baker in Pressburg. What a nonsense. Charles Sanford Terry then confirms by the way that even nameless biographers copied the Pressburg nonsense and copied them and copied them (... my speeches). There is still one of the venerable "old guards": there is the doctor from Lambarene, Africa, of whom we all know what he did great things in the jungle. But hardly anyone knows that Schweitzer has also been quite successful in music. He played them and his biography about Bach is acknowledged and highly respected by experts. Exciting, especially for a later consideration, it is already mentioned here that Schweitzer was one of the celebrities of the political system of the former GDR. Stamps bear witness to it. Exactly to this there is then still very much exciting.
Geiringer, Karl Geiringer. Auch er forschte und er schrieb keine Biografie über Johann Sebastian Bach. Er schrieb sein Buch über die Musikerfamilie Bach. Das war 1954, also bereits vorgestern – sozusagen. Und was meinte er zu Veit Bach aus Ungarn, beziehungsweise Pressburg? Er wirft die Nebelkerze "Gesellenreise". Wir wissen fast überhaupt nichts über diese Zeit, aber Geiringer bringt eine "Gesellenreise" mit ins Spiel. Könnte so gewesen sein. Oder er hat einfach Urlaub in Ungarn gemacht, unser Veit. Oder in Pressburg war ein Seminar. Oder er hatte eine Freundin im nördlichen Ungarn. Oder eine Tante in Prag. Nix Genaues weiß man nicht und Geiringer listet alle theoretischen Möglichkeiten auf: da ist für jeden Etwas dabei. Suchen Sie sich einfach einen schönen Reisegrund heraus.
This is what we want to clarify here: Hungary and Hungary have always been mixed up wildly. Anyone who said Hungary writes quickly also Ungern. And whoever said Hungarians quickly said Hungary. Nix further we want to prove here, in step 1 to chapter 1 with the background "Ungern". You can also explore the document above here yourself! You know how it works!
There are many things on this homepage. And many things are different around the world. For the first time in about 250 years of Bach history, I have a publishing platform available to me with the medium of Internet, which costs virtually no money. To spread the truth - or the correct version of a fact - after the "recovery" also. What is meant is the counterpart to earlier, when a publication on paper - a book - which was almost no one to read or buy on this subject, was the only form of his knowledge - or, in our case, pages 1 to 10, To introduce a more or less extensive opus to every new genealogy about Johann Sebastian Bach: the current authentic genealogy from 2015 of the famous musician family of Johann Sebastian Bach.
Where are these Bach's lights now? Because they are unlit - first out of Germany - is clear. For at first the brook lived in Thuringia. The "Church Penance", you remember? Clearly, to the "Story Kichenbuße": theoretically, it could also be possible that there were two famous musician families, both Bach were called. And were not related. Or even more musician families - all not related to each other but with the name Bach: the Ohrdrufer Bache, the Binderslebener Bache and white the Cuckoo, which still Bachs. All not interlinked? But probably ... - is really not. For the sake of completeness, this very theoretical possibility, perhaps your objection at this point, has been discussed here.
First of all, one can assume that someone who fled for whatever reason, on foot, prefers a closer goal to the further distant. On a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being the heaviest, this is a reason of under 1. But, it should be remembered. Everyone can rate for themselves. The basic values? Preßnitz, one of the possible destinations is from Wechmar 42 hours walk, so round 5 days of march. Bratislava is a 129-hour hike. This is a walk of 16 days. But this indication "lags" of course terrible: Based on 8 hours of running a day and with family in the tow it will certainly have lasted longer. But we also only realize: more likely is closer. It is therefore more likely that the Bachs moved to Bohemia than to Hungary. And perhaps even then Bohemia was also Hungary. Just like Ostfriesland also Germany.
o when the Bachs left Germany, we can no longer really ascertain. At least not at present. Not according to the state of my research today. This is - as well - but also not necessary. In 1504 they were still there, in Thuringia. And later they came back. To Thuringia. And just back. Let us suppose that Hungarians were really meant to be Hungarian, because it was then the language use to name Hungary Hungarians - among other terms, such as Hungarians, Hungarians and Hungarians - but this does not matter here. Then pressburg will be eliminated again. Pressburg as the place of origin, von Veitbach, was probably only inspired by the origin at all.
Mit einer Wahrscheinlichkeit von 99,9 % können sich also 100 % aller Forscher darauf einigen, dass die Bachs von rechts unten auf der Karte, nach Thüringen einwanderten: die, die immer noch unwissentlich die Herkunft aus Pressburg verbreiten und die, die den Terminus, den Bach ja selber überlieferte, als bare Münze handhabten. Von "rechts unten" war immer richtig. Damit wird allerdings auch der Weg frei, der in keiner Biografie als Option aufgeführt ist. Außer: bei Spitta. Da finden wir nämlich eine Möglichkeit, die neben den vorhandenen Dokumenten weitere logische Aspekte aufweist: Die Bachs sind zuvor nach Böhmen ausgebüchst. Böhmen war für viele Deutsche damals, was später und heute die USA waren und noch sind: das gelobte Land, sozusagen. Ein Flecken Erde, auf dem man seine Religion unbedroht ausüben konnte. Das waren allerdings noch mehr Gebiete, gerne auch die Gegend rund um Pressburg, aber eben nur "auch".
On this website they read it clearly in one of the "Lutherbriefe". Right, from Martin Luther to his most illustrious, high-born women, women Mary, queen of Hispania, Queen of Hungary and Bohemia, my most gracious women. Simply click above. And here on another homepage you will find an ancient book about the back and forth between Hungary, Silesia and Bohemia.
Phase 2 of Chapter 1 and no less exciting: we want to clarify together whether Hungarians have spoken - correctly, or written - not simply "right down". So according to the motto: everything in the southeast is somehow Hungary. And that "is just as good" also Ungern. Find it yourself?
If you bite at the term Ungern = Hungary, then you meet another presumption, which, however, is only conceived by as few people as you have fingers in one hand. This consideration presumes in the word "Ungern" a place or a landmark, which is presumed until 1590 just in the area, where today the places Preßnitz, Ullersdorf, Teplitz and Janegg are located. So in Bohemia. I would like to take a brief look at this, because you really want to know about all options. Correct? Correct!
In order to illuminate this consideration, there are a total of four ways. First of all, the best proof is to find documents that clearly convince that Ungern is a place or a booth in Bohemia. As text read or on a card noted, of course, on an ancient map. This is quickly done, because after a little digging in the Internet is certain: such a document does not exist. Nobody has ever found one, nor presented. The second option is the likelihood of the possibility: one looks for documents, first of all whether or not the terms "Hungary" and "Hungarian" were used to speak of Hungary. And you will find it. Both terms are used so times and times. Now, of course, it is exciting whether Johann Sebastian Bach's great-grandfather, Veit Bach, did not really know about geography, and he said that he had spent 50 years in Hungary with his father and grandfather, and he had not been to Hungary at all , How likely is that? But the alternative? The two brothers spent two generations in a country which belonged to Hungary. That could be exploring. Finally, the royal route remains: one is looking for a place in the vicinity of the towns and cities listed above. Or just a land.
A place does not simply disappear from the map. This was my opinion at the beginning of my search. And I was quickly taught something wrong. From the best friend, who knows everything about it. And not only individual places disappear, sink into reservoirs and were burned down or abandoned. There are whole lists of disappeared places. What makes the search for Ungern not easy. Historical documents with reference to the emigration of a stream from Thuringia to Bohemia can be found only in an epoch when Germany was still two sovereign states, namely in the second half of the last century. This is also why, with a single exception, no mention is made of any biography of the "great five" and the many insignificant biographers. You knew nothing about it. Only one of the greats decided not to integrate this later well-known possible origin of the Bach into his current biography, nor into the current edition: Professor Christoph Wolff. Why? His thing is Johann Sebastian Bach, less the musician family. But it is again more our thing. Let us remain on the king's path, to find Ungern. If there is this relentlessness. You remember: the village or the village of Ungern, or the land, the region of Ungern. Thus, if this consideration of the fact that Ungern could have been a landmark or a place name emerged for the first time after 1960, the person who brought this idea into play had to read without having read Ungern or found it on a map Have to give more people who knew about it. And she was to be found.
What would we all do without Google and keywords? Do you remember? We wanted to establish the proximity - not only of Hungary and Hungary. But also whether one might have called Bohemia Hungary. Only "could"! So could Bohemia be annexed to Hungary, and would Hungary be called Hungarians? Could be. Did Bach, then, agree with Hungary? And if so, one thing is certainly certain: this does not necessarily mean for Pressburg! Check it out?
Whom do you ask? First of all, I find expellees. And precisely those who had fled from the areas of the cities mentioned: Pressnitz, Janegg, Ullersdorf and Teblitz. If people were to remember the name of a village, city, or even a landmark, from generation to generation, then the grandparents of the grandparents of those living in Germany today. And if Veit Bach remembered that there was a penniless, that is, a penniless place or land, then the ancestors, and thus the descendants of the expellees, could know in any case. Especially, because in such associations, traditions are preserved. By definition, too. You surf the Internet and find the right club, possibly also with the help of similar institutions or with partner clubs of the institution sought. You call or mail or write a warm letter and ask for help. I have done this: at three clubs, all connected to our "region of increased interest". In such clubs there are annual meetings and they are all together. All who perhaps know by passing from a place Ungern or a landmark Ungern. And what comes out of it? In none of the three homeland associations mentioned, only one person recalls a story of the grandparents about the stories of their grandparents in which there was a landmark or even a place. End of the story with the place or the landscape Ungern!
End of the story? Perhaps, if you make it easy. Because it is very time-consuming. But, what courage, dat mut. In every smaller place and in larger municipalities and cities anyway, there are locals. Somehow this is always the case. As if one were to say that every one or two generations finds one that takes over and preserves the history of the place from the predecessor. Only you have to find them, these locals. And hurray, hurray, the internet is fantastic. First you visit Google Maps, the land map of the Internet giant. They locate the places that come into question and move quite generously - much farther south than the areas in question - an imaginary line of four towns and cities. In my case it is Plzen - Praha - Hradec Kralove - Nachod, a beautiful, almost straight division of the Czech Republic from 8:00 o'clock to 14:00 o'clock, if you know what I mean: relatively exact from southwest to northeast. Pilsen and Prague you will find yourself on the map, the other two you can see if you touch Google Maps a bit with the plus sign. And then you can continue with the plus sign excellently and look for places, cities and municipalities. It is written in a table and bounces - to clear where else - to Wikipedia. There you will find every place that is so small. And today no one has a website, no homepage. Even places with 105 inhabitants have one. And there's the mayor or the Lord Mayor. Like, actually, with us, too. They formulate a help request, translate it into English, and then send it away. In conventional paper, he does not land in spam. And so many letters find the way to local choristers, in archives and professors and doctors help with Bach. Even the loving lines alone and the exciting project to do so make speechless. But by the way, you get a great overview.
In the search for Ungernland: Almost, really, almost that would have been the proof of something you will learn below as an incredible development. Unfortunately, it was a "close by". These are Transylvanians, which was meant. Read more: I promise you, it will be exciting. To the original? With pleasure!
En detail? You can hop to the next section. So write letters. And many. How many? Exactly 41 letters. And sending them to the mayors and mayors in Teplice, Bolebor, Bozi Dar, Brezno, Chomutov, Decin, Dubi, Hora Svateho, Horni Jiretin, Horní Litvínov, Hradec Kralove, Hrušovany nad Jevišovkou, Jachimov, Jirkov, Kadan, Kalek, Karlovy Vary , Klasterec nad Ohri, Kliny, Kovarska, Krasny Les, Krupka, Krystofovy Hamry, Litoměřice, Medenec, Mezibori, Mikoluv, Moldava, Most, Nachod, Nejdek Nove Mesto na Moravě, Perštejn, Plzen, Prague, Usti Lad Nabem, Vysluni, Zatec, Duchcow, Moldava, Lovosice, jeníkov. Or, if you have more fun at the German names of places, municipalities, villages or cities then just: Teplitz, Göttersdorf, Priesen, Chomutov, God's grave, Decin, Eichwald, St. Sebastian Mountain, Obergeorgenthal, Leutensdorf, Hradec Kralove, Grusbach, Joachimsthal, Görkau , Kadan, Kallich, Carlsbad, Klášterec Eger, Göhren, Schmiedeberg, Schoenwald, grains, Christoph hammer, Litomerice, Medenec, Schönbach, Mikulov, Moldavia, Brüx, Nachod, Neudek, Neustadt in Moravia, Pürstein, Pilsen, Prague, Usti nad Labem, Sonnenberg, Saaz, Dux, Moldau, Lobositz and Janegg.
Ungern in Böhmen? Ungarn in Böhmen? Ungernland: ... eine Gegend dort? Oder auch Ungarnland im Norden? Fehlanzeige, Fehlanzeige! Aber: Ungarn und Ungern ... – beides war okay und wurde abwechselnd verwendet.
I thought for a long time. Now I have it in writing. Veitbach could have meant Hungary and indeed called it Hungarian. Here is the proof: the excerpt from the right-hand letter, shown above, really big when you click on the picture.
And the population figures? From 1,240,000 people in Prague down to a number of 105 souls in Kliny - or once again German in Göhren - everything is represented. And what do you find out with the answers? First of all, the real exciting fact that Hungarians and Hungarians were mixed up in language, and at the same time that Bohemia belonged to Hungary at certain times. And from what one reads nothing? The fact that it has given Ungern as a municipality or as a land strip. The closest: two places that are called Ungerndorf or Ungersdorf, but are located in a different place in the Czech Republic.
Is not that a boom in Bohemia? Never ever. Is it important? This is the exciting thing: No. Not at all. It does not underestimate, it is nowhere to be found. It is not an additional indication. Nothing at all. As far as the idea that it could be a land in Bohemia.
Hungarians, Hungarians, Hungarians, Hungary - just as you have fun: Googel supplies thousands of documents from all these terms. And piety in Bohemia? Then your fingers are sore. Over three hours. Now what is meant by what is now meant here ... - you are now really getting around to reading. But here is the following: it is actually the only reference on the Internet on the subject of "Ungern in Bohemia". Perhaps you'll come back here again later? To the original? Gladly ... - please go along here.
If a situation is not clear, it is no better if one adds seemingly very equal rights in the text on the subject of completely irrelevant further aspects and then pushes them to the fore as well. Bach is complicated. The Bach Genealogy also. And Bach's genealogy before Veitbach is very special. And where one can read about Veitbach - died 1619 - it should become clear, not confusing. Whether Lips, Caspar and the cuckoo know ... - now nephews, cousins, sons or cousins were - plays for the "simple genealogy" also absolutely no role. Readers of a biography are also not interested in the Bindersleben line, the Rhön-Stamm or the Molsdorfer Bache. And what does that actually mean?
Veitbach: we are interested in the name of his father, the place of birth and the place of death. Otherwise nothing. Maybe the name of the grandfather, his birthplace and his place of death. Why is it so ... - and this applies to all Bach connoisseurs and for all Bach-hobby genealogists? Because of these few basic data his or his Johann Sebastian Bach can be found. So what should be the presumed cross - references in 1,000 variants to the unsecured considerations with partly completely inadmissible names (... it could have been Veit, the older ones, or there were Veit I and Veit II and so on ...) or considerations like ... "... if he lived in Pressburg, he might have been born there too!". Sure, my opinion, maybe he was born in Sardinia. So. What interests us when it's so complicated? Who was the father of Veit Bach and who was the father of Papa von Veitbach. Veitbach to the first, Veitbach to the second. Hobby genealogers. And they find. And they are annoyed already, if in the stencils of Ancetry.com and ancestorforschung.net no picture is to be inserted. Or if a sterbedatum is missing or the place of birth. Let us briefly and clearly. With 99.9% probability, Veit came from abroad, was Thuringian, Czech or Hungarian and all other sources are exotic theories, on the basis of no documents, not even indices.
1963 Until 2015
2015 Until Eternity
It is the Thuringian, or more precisely, the Arnstadt Karl Helmuth, who has devoted himself to the time articles for articles of the time - which he himself wrote professionally - to the fact that the true history of the Johann Sebastian Bach family was never lost. Only this, his convincing pause at the right variant of Bach's history, led to the fact that the findings of this researcher in the case of Bach's genealogy and literature, in the second decade of the third millennium (... thus simpler "today") The project "Bach over Bach" in a short, overlapping period. Read more below. But here again explicitly: Dankeschön Mr. Abendroth. For half a century of constant conviction. As you will be able to read, you have - unfortunately - often failed to convince others that recent biographies involve your findings. Nevertheless, you never gave up and finally trusted me. And finally, our paths have crossed through their recent publications. And so the Bach genealogy - also in this segment - has finally been researched and completed. Thank you in the name of the Bach community and thank you in the name of the family.
Helmuth Karl Abendroth is also a sought-after expert in Arnstadt and beyond the city limits: he is not only the most senior tourist guide, he is also Bach expert and freelance editor at the TA. With some notable items. The Thuringian General also reported on him and he reports on the past in Arnstadt. About the past with Arnstadt's most famous citizen, Johann Sebastian Bach, but also about other families. And not only genealogy is his expertise, but more topics.
Technically, there are only three possibilities: For our Veit Bach - the one who is considered ancestor of the musician family and who died in 1619. He could have lived his life between his birth and his death in 1619 in three variants. To this end, however, we must assume that there would have to be more information about the church books. The emphasis is on undo! Because if only one year is missing, then Veit could have been born this year and there is no more recording. And in addition - please remember - that is only theoretical: So Veit Bach could have been born in Wechmar, never was gone (... never came again) and died there in 1619. Or ... - he was born in Wechmar or around, cut off towards Hungary, returned from there, settled in Wechmar and died in 1619. Or he was not born in Thuringia, so probably came with family members (... probably most likely with his parents, or perhaps also alone) from Hungary to Wechmar. As mentioned, this works only theoretically and with Hungary or Ungern is meant all south-east of Thuringia. In addition, there are now two variants, but with our Veit Bach have less to do. Namely the first variant is that not only the Bach with Veit Bach lived abroad, but that many generations before that also did. So that this greatest German composer, perhaps the greatest composer, has no German roots at all? I will now like to present this final and thus history-changing.
Bach wrote in 1735 that the first musician was Veit Bach. But his knowledge of his ancestors in Gräfenroda is "omitted" in his "origin of the musical-Bach family" and this on purpose. This clarifies what I - the author of this homepage - has long claimed: the "origin" is simply no family tree. It should never be. Something is already there - but not a family tree.
It is now official: Gräfenroda is now - starting from 2015 - another Bach village and also the germ cell of the 1500 still completely unmusical family Bach in Thuringia.
Gräfenroda? Never heard, never read about it? Not in a Bach biography and also nowhere else? Where is it? And why is this village now Bachort and why does it play a part today, but not for 500 years?
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Our Lucy ... yes, we all descended from her: the Bach, the Kennedys, the Müllers. But, please do not take that very seriously. Thank you.
Professor Dr. With his book "The Musician Family Bach", Geiringer is the first biographer who, 220 years after Johann Sebastian Bach, began his career with the musician family, the first to shake at the same time and to make a name for himself with his publication. At the beginning of his text in the first chapter, he addressed the "Church Penance", which played a role for almost no biographer. It dates back to 1504 and Geiringer states that there is no proof. That was, however, in 1954 and today we know very well that there is the proof. In the Arnstadt Archive. Here you can see this letter. If Geiringer does not pay attention to the fact that Bach did not speak about Hungary, he wrote that Veit Bach From Ungern. And he also wonders why Bach did not leave behind, whether one had escaped as a clan from Hungary, that is, all the ancestors were Hungary. The rest of this section is quite mischievous, for neither a man knows whether Veit is a hiker, nor is it logical that one needs exactly two generations to possess something that can be sold to move. The Aldis only needed a generation and hundreds of immigrants in the US, for example, to get rich. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Kennedy, Clinton. And the Quark to the Magyar musical heritage is just good enough so that the page below does not remain white and gilb. It becomes meaningful again when Geiringer concludes: the question of where the Bach came from remains unanswered.
On his next few pages on the early genealogy of the musician family, a glorious succession of Bach's, which might play a role, Bachs, who definitely played no role and a heresy in general. Why I describe it so impertinently and a little "from above," has the reason which results from the fact that Geiringer has filled the essential insights with insignificant things and enriched them with presumptions, and that for this reason he is totally disgusted Under the influence of drugs - even if something exciting is emerging on the horizon. For this reason, I do not go further into these pages, or show you here and now: In an example, you can convince yourself. What does it make sense for a Mr. Paul Bach to say that in the area around Coburg, the name Bach can already be established in the year 1000. So what?
The next in the series of competent Bach authors - ... and they are all listed here. For my criticism is valid only for the genealogical examination of a tiny, for the most insignificant period of time - is Professor Günther Kraft. He is the true master of Bach's genealogists. The master. The Knowing. Together with Spitta the exception. On him, Kraft, we came across a remark from Geiringer, who suggested that Kraft wanted to publish a new publication on Bach's genealogy, which he, Geiringer, did not want to anticipate. Kraft wrote the book, but it was never published. It was his habilitation, the scientific work that preceded a professorship. In 1963 he summarized his findings. You can read the extract a bit wider in the coming years on this portal, but the sensation is waiting a bit further down.
Percy Young, the next one in the biographer's biography: he broke the nonsense of Pressburg once more, and here, finally, we can understand, each one for himself, what Korabinsky once moved to say that Bachs came from Hungary - whatever! One will be a little famous, the next 200 years. Biograf Young is also followed by a long staccato of Hansens, Veitsens, Lipses and the mixed all sorts of things, which is only good for fogging the view through. Gräfenroda does not name him. Please correct me, if I have read it in the wust.
And how is Gräfenroda doing with Geck, Eidam and Wolff? It's gone, just gone! And if it was still possible at Wolff in 1980 (... I have to find it later for you), then it is at least in the 2009 edition simply: wech! Right along with our Veit Bach and his son Hans.
Gräfenroda. The Bachort Gräfenroda. How good: there are not only the Bachbiographers with the big names, recognized and respected worldwide. There are also the lesser known researchers and ...? And there are the hobby researchers. 1962 was a memorable year in Bach's genealogy and for Bach's history. But what was found there never succeeded in becoming a local celebrity. Three researchers with quite different competencies and leagues - but all three with an energy and a perseverance that is impressive - find in historical documents the sensation that has been puzzling Bach's genealogists for more than 200 years. And no one listens.
Well, you can not compare this sensation with the discovery of the pyramids in Giza or the discovery of Lucy in Africa - anyway ... - it's a! It is the three researchers Professor Günther Kraft from Weimar (... exactly the one you have already read above), the Bach- und Musikforscherin Dr. Annemarie Niemeyer from Arnstadt, and finally our Herr Abendroth, also from Arnstadt. The performance of Niemeyer and Kraft are remarkable, but the von Abendroth is of much greater importance. For it was not for him to do research. In the meantime, he has fought for more than half a century, in the meantime, to write these findings of the trio into the history of Bach. A small miracle, only serious researchers do this with this emphasis. And now off to the story.
The musicologist Dr. Niemeyer succeeded in finding a letter from the year 1728 in the documents of the evangelical Pfarramtes in Gräfenroda. However, she was only able to identify the names Bach and Kellner. Niemeyer was connected with Professor Kraft, and the priest in Gräfenroda gave her - and thus him - this letter in the short term with the today still hearty sounding comment: "The writer can not read a pig." However, contrary to the expectation of the Gräfenroda priest, Professor Kraft succeeded in deciphering the letter correctly and the tension rose. There were lines - written by the priest of the time - who paid a visit to Johann Sebastian Bach at Kantor Kellner. This makes Gräfenroda a place of the first and finest category, because not only is it genealogical - as we are reading - but also with its organ playing it is a strange place, in the language of the composer during his lifetime (... strange = That one noticed it). Here the report of the pastor of 28 September 1728 to this high visit *
* I changed the wording slightly and only slightly, because otherwise a so-called duplicate content is created, it would be the same wording as in the link here, if they want to click. And Google does not like that at all.
Johann Sebastian Bach was thus welcomed on this day not only by the priest, but also by the guilty Peter Nagel and then by a Herr von Röder. Afterwards they went into the church together and Bach met the Kantor waiter. After a warm welcome, the two musicians probably played the organ for two hours.
Johann Sebastian then inquired whether there was "something from the Bachen, who had been here since 1504 as his ancestors here." Exciting and what the newspaper report does not reveal - but transcended - is that Johann Sebastian Bach knew about the church penance, which was then sent exactly one year ago. At a time seven years before he composed his "Origin of the musical-Bach family" in 1735, and knowing that the Bach had not only since Veit, Gräfenroda simply dropped under the table. Why, then, in the chapter on v. 1 of his composition did not point out that the Bach did not come from Hungary, but came back from there remains a mystery. The pastor of Gräfenroda thus showed the supercomposer the tomb of a Jacob Bach who was the last brook in Gräfenroda and was buried there in 1677. Johann Sebastian and the priest then went to house 20 together with the Mühlgraben, where the brook had lived.
The next highlight of the day in Gräfenroda was a feast (... clear, with such a cool, cool visit from far away Leipzig, where Bach had been a Thomaskantor for five years, note from me) and Bach thanked in the following words : "So he was glad to have visited not only waiters today, but also the place where the brook once lived." He invited Kellner to a visit to Leipzig, and then went on. To Arnstadt. The report in the church book ends here, but Helmuth Karl Abendroth has researched and moved to other sources, a chronicle of the Witzmann family in Arnstadt.
On 29 September 1728 the funeral of Johann Sebastian Bach's stepmother Margarete Bach took place in Rippersroda. Exactly this funeral is explicitly confirmed in the family chronicle of this family Witzmann. And if you were already there, you could of course also bring in the family meeting. This happened in the inn "Zum nackten Knäbelein" at the Arnstädter Ried. However, in order for an uncomfortable and long journey to be worthwhile, the next station of the composer was the preacher's church at Erfurt. Bach met his colleague, the local cantor and composer Jakob Adlung. That Gräfenroda is a Bachort, one can understand, however, that this exchange of ideas of the gentlemen in Gräfenroda proves that exactly there the genealogy of the Bache begins, is however only an indication of medium goodness and I mean that in the scientific sense. However, I promise you: it comes more violently. For real.
The author of the report in the Arnstadt edition of the Thuringian Allgemeine, Helmuth Karl Abendroth, wondered why Frau Dr. Niemeyer at that time made this discovery known only in small circles. He never asked and it remained unknown to him. For me, I wrote today a small insignificant biography about Bach for kids and with the Internet a world-wide Bach-community reach ... - for me it is clear: If one of 10. 000 people one for Bach's music enthusiastically, then probably It probably only one of 100,000 who is really interested in Bach's life. And there is only one of 1,000,000 people who could inspire Bach's genealogy, and probably only one in ten million people who are now enjoying this sensation. This did not allow a book to be spread, nor were any interested Bach family members, the newspaper printed it, but the responsible local chef had probably forgotten the next day because of something more important and there was in 1962 not even any institution that would have interested it at all. Actually no one is really interested in what is apparent when one compares it with the echo, which is the result of a further cantata, which one ascribes to Bach, if it is found today - "always" again Contrary to finds in genealogy.
If you already have this information already exciting, please read it first: because now comes the "Burner" in the Bach genealogy.
"Somewhere down the road" one of these brothers went out of Thuringia. In fact, as a matter of fact, he had traveled to Bohemia (perhaps as a few people) (as we shall read). Documentary evidence. Perhaps because of religion. And there he gets a son. Of course not alone. And this son - already with his son again - is also bogging there again. Later, much later. Again, "because of religion," as we now know, in contrast to the one-time counterpart, he fled, and returned to Thuringia. More accurate? According to Wechmar. According to Wechmar but above all not because the so picturesque at Gotha is and you can be in a short time in Erfurt - for shopping. No, more likely, more likely, one returns to a country where, originally, our parents and grandparents came originally. Are the brothers coming from Hungary? Maybe. And rightly so, this Veit Bach did not come back when we put it on his person. But we do not. Because we are interested in family history and not really: the history of Veitbach. And the brothers as a family ... - they came back very well. There I am on the wording.
Do they come from Bohemia? The Bachs? Well, initially seemingly yes. But there they were only about two generations - better one and two half-long. Reason enough, therefore, to remember collectively: one came from abroad. On the other hand, this tribe of Bach had been only two generations abroad since the Stone Age. So better: two half generations and a whole.
In many places and cities Bach has "treated" the organ. The fact that this has also happened in Gräfenroda is nowhere to be found. Not in one of the great biographies. Not even at Terry. In the picture above you can see the pretty church in Gräfenroda.
And who cares? No pig. Or: at least very few pigs. Whom was that interested in earlier? Even very few. The editions of the previous standard works must have been the family musician's family record, and I believe this was quite certain. Around Veit there were exactly three books, which one could call so. Geiringer is excluded, because the time range that interests us is only a fraction of the book.
Three great genealogy books, five specialists: from Professor Dr. Günter Kraft, unfortunately, does not find his research as a book. So: Five experts and that means? Four opinions on Veitbach and Ungern. Why five? The standard work in Bach's genealogy was written by two authors: Koch and Siegel.
First of all, the book by Kurt Hermann Frickel, Bundesverdienstordräger in Bach's case is remarkable. His book is purple and the extract of a whole life section at Recherche. In the secure areas a treasure of information. In the border areas, however, Frickel and some of his hobbies explored Bach. However, Frickel failed today and the privacy of the past 20 years. Bachs still living were found exclusively when they "outed".
Second, who had been intensively searching for the roots of this musician family before Veitbach and Veitbach, was Prof. Dr. Günther Kraft. He finished his work, but never published it. For example, Kurt Geiringer waited in vain. And we too! But - thank God - it is not lost for Bach's genealogy: we have the complete text.
The third and most certainly successful book on the genealogy of the brook was published by Herrmann Kock and Ragnhild Siegel. Even today, it serves many and also us to the determination and in the brook-world and the Bach-science found it highest recognition. However, the publication of the Bach genealogy of Kock and Siegel also ends the era of printed Bach genealogies. And for two reasons. First of all there is hardly any further Bachs to discover. That is, finding branches and locating people who have not been around for four years. Secondly, such a collection was not selling like a bestseller at the time before the Internet, and today, the Internet is also a pivot for everyone who is looking for this information, even with our free genealogy. By the way, the brook-tribal tree is increasing every year, since Bach's deceased remains in him. And new ones are born "constantly".
Two things have to happen, so that the right genealogy in the world is now spread for all Bach-interested. The first is the convincing and credible presentation of the time before Veit (... that rhymes itself!). This can not be better than with a research, which the reader can document for document itself. It is also helpful to understand why biographers, genealogists and scientists have remained in the "version", which has been handed down for 250 years, and why confused considerations found their way into printed works and why the only proper genealogy of Bach before Veit had not (yet) been accepted. But just now.
To find the truth and help to spread this truth are two different pairs of boots. Until twenty years ago, when the Internet was not part of everyday life, there were only two possible ways to spread something new: one could inspire the media (... but not with such a story far from the mainstream) or write one Biography that popularly packed the news into the entire story. However: Without the then highly successful sales of several editions of this book - in addition - you could not "sell" just as much new, however sensational it may have been. While a tiny group of Bach genealogy specialists turned sensational, the world "The Little Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach", a romantic, lovely text on the life of Bach, criticized by experts, but pointedly and endlessly successful or just so often Dry recent reflections of the life of superstart Johann Sebastian Bach. Both the incredible discovery and the widespread distribution simply did not come together.
For example, people read biographies over many decades: since the first publication, this book has been printed in the hundreds of thousands. So packed, as one reads also gladly over a Veit brook, no matter where that comes from - from Hungary or even from Ungern. By the way: Veit is not present in this book and it is also not a biography. But it is the loveliest approach to a rather complicated subject.
What is better now: an exciting story about the best composer in the world, who certainly bends the biography here and there, or the life of the stars 100% correct and boring to read? Above, by the way, only a small part of the published editions are listed: in total the book sold about 1.5 million times. In the meantime, this work is unfortunately not available again. Too bad, really too bad.
Today, however, you do not need to print or succeed with a book edition to distribute content evenly over all times and across the world. Only one has to be placed in the right place, whenever an interested person is interested in the early history of the brooks before Veitbach - whether it is in Bach and Music or Bach and Genealogy. And you have to master the rules of the Internet and the search engines. And here we come into play: namely, my wife and I, especially myself.
1962 is the most important year. There are the GDR and work in it and are interested in three honorable personalities for Bach and the early genealogy of the Bachs. This is more than 50 years ago, and all the archives and institutions that are of importance for Bach research are now behind the Iron Curtain and are only accessible to so-called Western citizens with high hurdles at all. As well as the fact that there are specialists in Thuringia who are interested and involved, they are the musicologist Professor Dr. Günther Kraft, unquestionably the capacity in Bach's genealogy before Veit, around Veit and to Veitbach. Then there is the Bach- und Musikforscherin Dr. Annemarie Niemeier and it is the Bach connoisseur and Bach Genealogist Helmuth Karl Abendroth. Kraft lives in the Bachstadt Weimar, Niemeier and Abendroth live in the Bachstadt Arnstadt.
In her search, this musicologist in Gräfenroda finds in a church book an entry that is completely illegible. But she can decipher two names: waiter and brook. She asks if she can take this valuable historical document with you and help to decipher it, and the pastor says: "... clearly she could not read a pig anyway." You'll find out what's going on. After the deciphering by the most intensive and qualified Bach genealogist, 1 on this page of unbelievable importance for Bach's science.
For the next document is the pivot: the lecture is precisely this musicologist Dr. Annemarie Niemeier on September 24, 1967, five years later.
Place of the event is the RFT cultural center. The host is Arnstadt in Thuringia, then GDR. The title of the lecture "Notes on Bach Research with Hans Bach and Hans Obendrot of 1529". First, the speaker refers to the statements of Franz Wiegand in his book J.S: Bach, according to which a Hans Bach lived in Gräfenroda in 1509. This he did together with Hans Obendrot, was arrested and the prince of Schwarzenburg tried to release them both. This is indicated on a document of the Thuringian State Archives in Rudolstadt, Arnstadt Office, Vorl. Sign.Gr.13 No. 1950 - but hardly decipherable. It is about an episode that Geiringer broadly broadly, but has to do with the Bach story incredibly little. Still less with Bach's genealogy. You have already read above.
Es geht weiter im dokumentierten Vortrag: Bei Hermann Gresky in dessen Publikation "Ein unbekannter Arnstädter" wird Obintroth bereits zum Schwager. Dies datiert 1507. Abendroth lebte laut Unterlagen von seiner Geburt 1481 bis zu seinem Tod 1563 in Gräfenroda. Hans Bach, dessen Geburts-Zeitpunkt ebenso wenig bekannt ist, wie das Todesdatum, lebte ab 1486 in Gräfenroda.
With this summary, Niemeier begins the speech and asks rhetorically whether this is all the ancestors of Bach's Mueller and Spielmanns, but this is absolutely irrelevant for nothing (... my comment) and comes to the conclusion: No. Niemeyer also finds documents in the various local church archives, which document that a Margarethenbach was married to a Hans Abendroth and that these two brothers are the oldest demonstrable Bach of this musician family. According to Dr. Dr. Niemeier's note no doubt. Why, too?
Please note that the original document has been edited for you by me. So that there is not a "scientifically surely exciting" lack of names and connections, which then bury the essential findings. Together Niemeier and an employee send these documents to the office in Berlin at the time, as a reminder that Berlin was at that time the capital of the GDR - but there is much more than no interest. This sensation does not come any better, worse: Berlin does not return these documents. Not even on multiple complaints. One wanted to stick to the existing tribal tree - it was from Berlin - meaning the "origin", which is however no family tree (... my remark). Niemeier and the small circle of Bach specialists are working on the case again, but now without the originals - but they can also make it from memory.
From the church books found, it is clear that a Veit Hansbach emigrated to Bohemia with a Christoph Obentrot in 1549. A little more information around it should not confuse us, it is absolutely irrelevant for the whole. That's why she is not here. What is striking: it goes from Gräfenroda to Bohemia. Bohemia. Not Hungary. Bohemia.
In the next section of the speech, Niemeier asks - again rhetorically - why all the ancestors of the great Johann Sebastian Bach musician had been. She questions that. I yes further up already. And she, like myself, prescribes that one biographer copies the other. She calls Spitta, Bitter and Terry. I too. In the Intelligenblatt of 1873, another researcher also criticizes the immobility in the matter of Veitbach and the adherence to the variant of J.S. Bach. It seems as if it played a special role, that one simply did not want the first of the guild to make the music, but in the mine. Almost not comprehensible - ... but what remains as a motive otherwise? Later even the theorem that one had a stable Bach picture in the GDR and who would be the question of questioning the great musicologist Albert Schweizer. As we shall see.
In the lecture follows a huge and confusing performance of detailed data. They all culminate in the fact that Caspar Bach was buried in the grave of his son Caspar Bach. Yes, they read it correctly. And with the omission of the details and a half-page section, I do not want to imply that these facts are not authentic. No, I do not give it to you, because it's just around the many Bachs around. And you should only be interested in it - if you also take the name of J.S. Bach's mother-in-law and the name of the opa from our court composer. And if they did not know how to "shoot them out of the gun," further names would be confusing and not at all useful.
Rather not, right? The exciting thing still comes, and up to this point there was a certain preparation which will involve you, why the then Berlin could not at all be befriended by the twist in Bach history. This is really exciting now.
It is a letter from Dr. Jaroslaw, rector and episcopate to "his dear brother Abendroth". Jesuit convent of the Mariaschein.
Karl Helmut Abendroth, however, does not let loose. In July 2003, he received a request for the exact text of the document, which "no pig could read", from the son of professor Kraft the following transcript of this
In fact, if you've been around for a long time, as you are slowly growing up, you might have noticed how it lives, the website. How it changes. How it grows. Nothing is carved in stone, and just as the well-known researchers and Bach establishments find a great deal on the subject of Bach, such as, for example, a second Haußmann (the most famous painting by Bach), or a new cantata, or a passion or fantasy Also I - and still more my wife - constantly new. We also research with enthusiasm. Hobby research is only possible, but sometimes "just" is not "just".
And so now take part in a development so typical of Bach. My opinion and assessment changes in September 2015. And you can follow that. For I am not writing the first chapters of this page anymore, but as they are, they are now part of my personal Bach story. What is meant? An example: the Bachsiegel. Do you know it? Googling times, and look at the crown - with the pictures - three seals are correct, seven seals are wrong. It was only in the last years that they found out with such a sensational find: Bach's coat of arms had only five so-called pins. The seal was not "wrong". It has now become a part of Bach's history. To a very young part. Two pictures - by CPE and Wilhelm Friedemann - do not show Bach, but some people: now these pictures are parts of Bach's story.
For a long time, this very moment, or very long, which Bach himself wrote down as a penniless, and that all the biographers have written to Hungary in my head. In three big waves I wanted to light up the light: 5 years ago, about 2 years ago and just 2015. The first indication that it might not be about Umgarn with Ungern, I got from a nice person, in Arnstadt In the Bachkirche tourists provided answers and to which I imagined myself as a Binderslebener Bach. Since that day, this "relentlessness" persecutes me. I wanted to start with the topic "Pressburg", then "Ungern und Ungerland" and finally to the three documents, the crystal clear and unambiguously the genealogy - and together with a probability of 99% - new define. And what do I have to say in reading the letter of a rector and episcopate of the monastery in Swyonoe in the Czech Republic? There is probably a reluctant, or Ungernland. It is in Bohemia and so it changed - thank God - not again the analysis. So the statement remains the same and it is sensational, but "on the way so to speak" I have to correct my research a little.
You have arrived with me together between the first document and the second. The first is the interpretation - my interpretation - of the presentation of Dr. Dr. Niemeier in Arnstadt in 1967. Now I've worked my way through the second piece of paper, and it's questioning my whole guess, including the final conclusions, whether there is a land of Ungerland at the same time. In the meantime, I am convinced: there was Ungernland and that was also called Ungern. But since, with the same unambiguousness of Ungernland or Ungern in (!) Bohemia, a conclusion is valid: Veitbach did not come from Ungern, but from an area which I assumed to be temporary and possibly at some point Hungary. As I continue to do research in matter, I also recognize that Bohemia now fits all my considerations. To those before the recognition from the second document (chapter 1) and the afterwards (chapter 2).
Only: The mention of Pressburg in this letter from Bohemia does not appeal to me and I stick to it: Pressburg as the origin of the brook - especially of Veit Bach is Quark, Nonsens and nonsense. By the way: Georg Bernhard, who is supposed to have actually married to Pressburg, is nowhere again "dipped". I remain with it: Pressburg as origin of the Bach is nonsense, idiocy, Ulk. And again, take part in our research and further development of this homepage. For this page will be finished in the coming days in September 2015, but until then there are no homeland associations and not the monastery of Mariaschein, where I would like to ask for an old document in which the Beriff is Hungarian or Hungarian Our search is noted. And kindly send me a photo of it. If I can understand this proof myself, I will publish a press release. No, not with dpa, Reuters and the Associated Press - no, who wants to read it already. Very small and modest will be on the internet press portals to be read and finally from this my homepage but never again disappear.
Und wieder nehmen Sie teil an unserer Forschung und der Weiterentwicklung dieser Homepage. Denn diese Seite wird in den kommenden Tagen im September 2015 fertig werden, aber bis dahin sind noch keine Heimatvereine angeschrieben und auch nicht das Kloster Mariaschein, wo ich darum bitten möchte, ein altes Dokument zu finden, in dem der Beriff Ungernland oder Ungern im Sinne unserer Suche vermerkt ist. Und mir liebenswürdigerweise ein Foto davon zu schicken. Wenn ich diesen Beweis selber nachvollziehen kann, dann werde ich dazu eine Pressemeldung veröffentlichen. Nein, nicht bei dpa, Reuters und Associated Press – nein, wer will das denn schon lesen. Ganz klein und bescheiden wird das auf den Internet-Presseportalen zu lesen sein und schließlich von dieser meiner Homepage aber nie wieder verschwinden.
One More Document - Again a Hurray to Karl Helmuth Abendroth in Arnstadt
He actually answered what I wanted to ask him in September 2015. Mr. Abendroth, the expert from Arnstadt. This unshaked caller. The man who did not let himself be discouraged and spread the story of the genealogy of the brooks in the world until we heard and read about him, and now we want to keep history together for the world. It is actually the exact wording of the document, which at the time "no pig could read". And that is so exciting that I can reproduce it here word by word. And why do I do that now and not already much earlier. Because it is about making the essence clear. And this seemed to be the last process, the extract from the lecture of Dr. Dr. Niemeier not possible. Now it is more important to me to convince you of the authenticity of this ancient document of 1728 on the resulting genealogy.
Translation of a record by the founder of the Gräfenroder pastor Jeremias Schneider, who describes the visit of J. S. Bach in Gräfenroda on 28 September 1728.
"Waiter was a cantor in Gräfenroda for a year, before that he was in Frankenhain, and he made everybody mad with the announcement that Mr. Capellmeister Bach from Leipzig would come to Gräfenroda in Leibesfill, to him Mr. Bach came to us from Gorena, and was greeted by me, the priest Jeremias Schneider, by the guilty Peter Nagel, and by Herr von Roder.
We went with Kapellmeister Bach to the church, where Kantor Schneider from cell was already at the entrance. When Bach had entered the church, the organ sounded as loud as if the bells were ringing. Our Lord Cantor Johann Peter Kellner intoned a fugue to b-a-c-h. Then the brook was standing still and speechless. After the game Bach welcomed the waiter with the words - My young old friend - in a hug. For more than two hours the three brothers, waiters and tailors were playing the organ. I was frightened by the church, the windows made music, and the two chandeliers swung in the boat. Just a luck, waiter had three kickers for the organ that day. After the organ play was still time to the feast and Mr. Bach asked me as pastor whether his ancestors in Gräfenroda still had something to see, since his ancestors with the siblings around Hans Bach Caspar Bach and Margarete Bach - Obentrot *, from 1504 Such as the Gährer * Kantor Bach, or Hans Veitbach, and perhaps a brook in Gräfenroda.
I was familiar with the old writings, and so I could tell Herr Bach. The three siblings brothers are known to me and the Gräfenroder Bache went to a child of Margarete Bach, before they married the Obentrot and six Children had lived with this, of which descendants in Bittstedt Arnstadt, Langewiesen and Mansfeld. The descendants of the son of Margarete - Jakob Bach - lived until the 28th of January 1677 with Jacob Bach in Gräfenroda. From there, there is no more Bach in Gräfenroda. You could still see the grave and the house from the last brook in Gräfenroda. Bach praised the beautiful weather and spoke a course to the two places. Thus Herr Bach saw the tomb of Jacob Bach at the * cemetery and the house 20 at the Mühlgraben, where Jacob Bach lived on the first floor. Herr Bach expressed his delight in being once in the place where his original tribe of his family was in Thuringia. Even with his brother, when he was in Ohrdruf, he wanted to go to the home of his ancestors to Gräfenroda and Wegmar, but there was no time for it. So he was glad to visit not only the waiters today, but also the place where the Thuringian brooks have their roots. Mr. Bach wants once again to visit the house of his great-grandfather, Hans Bach, and the Untermühle, which belongs to his great-grandfather, Veit Has to see. Veit is the one who has grinded the flour on the zyrones. Both should still be present the somewhat larger house and the Untermühle at the Orsteingange of Wandersläben *. Herr Bach said that one should write down all the brooks in Thuringia, that he did not know how many there were.
I was familiar with the old writings, and so I could tell Herr Bach. The three siblings brothers are known to me and the Gräfenroder Bache went to a child of Margarete Bach, before they married the Obentrot and six Children had lived with this, of which descendants in Bittstedt Arnstadt, Langewiesen and Mansfeld. The descendants of the son of Margarete - Jakob Bach - lived until the 28th of January 1677 with Jacob Bach in Gräfenroda. From there, there is no more Bach in Gräfenroda. You could still see the grave and the house from the last brook in Gräfenroda. Bach praised the beautiful weather and spoke a course to the two places. Thus Herr Bach saw the tomb of Jacob Bach at the * cemetery and the house 20 at the Mühlgraben, where Jacob Bach lived on the first floor. Herr Bach expressed his delight in being once in the place where his original tribe of his family was in Thuringia. Even with his brother, when he was in Ohrdruf, he wanted to go to the home of his ancestors to Gräfenroda and Wegmar, but there was no time for it. So he was glad to visit not only the waiters today, but also the place where the Thuringian brooks have their roots. Mr. Bach wants once again to visit the house of his great-grandfather, Hans Bach, and the Untermühle, which belongs to his great-grandfather, Veit Has to see. Veit is the one who has grinded the flour on the zyrones. Both should still be present the somewhat larger house and the Untermühle at the Orsteingange of Wandersläben *.
Herr Bach said that one should write down all the brooks in Thuringia, that he did not know how many there were. After the banquet in the afternoons after four o'clock Mr. Bach broke away. Waiters should visit the brook next year, when he is at the Handel in Halle. The door for Johann Peter stands by Bach always open He thanked himself for the honest organ play and the delicious food, but also for the fact that he now knows the place of his original tribe. With the carriage he drove to the Zimmergasse in Arnstadt, where relatives also lived from him. "28 Sep. 1728 Jeremias Schneider Pastor in Gräfenroda"
Presented in the vicarage on the Hofgutsgarten. The * supplemented words are not write errors (... my note). Helmuth Karl Abendroth, one of the researchers' group around Arnstadt, is still not satisfied with this one original document. Not if he, as one of five engaged, is convinced of something quite different from the most famous of all Bach biographers on earth, for over 200 years. He also verifies the presence of Bach in Gräfenroda and finds out that Bach's pommel Margareta Bach was buried in Rippersroda on 29 September 1728. This event is mentioned in the chronicle of a family Witzmann, who has never before met and will never meet again. On the same day in the afternoon, then - certainly from the above. Sad occasion, a meeting of the brook in the inn "Zum nackten Knabelein" at the Arnstädter Ried instead. A day later, on September 30, 1728, Bach met with the organist of the preacher's church in Erfurt, Jakob Adlung. In his contribution to the Thuringian general on 28.9.2013, Abendroth expressed his regret that the actual finder of the document did not make this sensation known beyond a tiny circle of people. Alone, his report 43 years after the discovery of this document - 2003 in the TA - makes Abendroth the real one - and as one today says so beautifully, sustainable - discoverer and narrator. To the point: the world owes its preservation to this knowledge.
After the banquet in the afternoons after four o'clock Mr. Bach broke away. Waiters should visit the brook next year, when he is at the Handel in Halle. The door for Johann Peter stands by Bach always open He thanked himself for the honest organ play and the delicious food, but also for the fact that he now knows the place of his original tribe. With the carriage he drove to the Zimmergasse in Arnstadt, where relatives also lived from him. "28 Sep. 1728 Jeremias Schneider Pastor in Gräfenroda"
Presented in the vicarage on the Hofgutsgarten. The * supplemented words are not write errors (... my note).not write errors (... my note).
Helmuth Karl Abendroth, one of the researchers' group around Arnstadt, is still not satisfied with this one original document. Not if he, as one of five engaged, is convinced of something quite different from the most famous of all Bach biographers on earth, for over 200 years. He also verifies the presence of Bach in Gräfenroda and finds out that Bach's pommel Margareta Bach was buried in Rippersroda on 29 September 1728. This event is mentioned in the chronicle of a family Witzmann, who has never before met and will never meet again. On the same day in the afternoon, then - certainly from the above. Sad occasion, a meeting of the brook in the inn "Zum nackten Knabelein" at the Arnstädter Ried instead. A day later, on September 30, 1728, Bach met with the organist of the preacher's church in Erfurt, Jakob Adlung.
In his contribution to the Thuringian general on 28.9.2013, Abendroth expressed his regret that the actual finder of the document did not make this sensation known beyond a tiny circle of people. Alone, his report 43 years after the discovery of this document - 2003 in the TA - makes Abendroth the real one - and as one today says so beautifully, sustainable - discoverer and narrator. To the point: the world owes its preservation to this knowledge.
You are here. You are currently experiencing with me - and this in real-time - what goes through my head when I analyze two other documents and prepare them for you by filtering out the essentials from both of them. And by pushing the immaterial into the background. The focus is on the "question of all questions" about the genealogy of the musician family before Veitbach. Is there a connection with a brook that emigrated from Thuringia and a brook that arrived in Bohemia? And yes, there is him, she is found. Not from me and that was already already published. By which we - "my wife and I" adorn ourselves "- is the tracing of these two documents, their follow-up and the spread of this Bach sensation. Helmuth Karl Abendroth and we had to find us. Without him we would not have known it - without "Bach over Bach" you would never have found it.
We know, therefore, from the church books of Wechmar and Gräfenroda that Hans Veit was seeking the expanse. And to Bohemia. Not Hungary, certainly not Pressburg. But Bohemia. And here is the proof that exactly this Hans Veitbach in Bohemia has also arrived. In the copy of the Rector's reply at the Monastery of Mariaschein in Bohemia to our Helmuth Karl Abendroth in Arnstadt, Thuringia, the original is also pictured. He has successfully searched for this link and has actually found it.
KLASTER A SEMINAR
Rektor a Episkopat
The peace and the grace of God is with you.
Dear brother ...,
by Mr. Domprobst, Dr. Georg Jehlich, I have received the request and have to stand it, it was no easy task for my fellow-brothers. Unfortunately, many documents are destroyed and destroyed by the war. Thus we have only very few documents from the monastery and church archives in Pilsen. A copy of a memorial service from the then Lutheran Church (partly from the year 1551) is still preserved. According to this, an evangelical church archivist, F. Luppe, has already looked for it via the Kirchenamt Eisenach. The same was in possession of a memorandum on the conclusion of the marriage: "married Lutheran in Pilsen as a baker." Whether this man is known, we can not estimate.
The Kästner family (or until 1946) was an old-established Catholic family in Janeegg and Ullersdorf near Teplitz. This region bore the name of Ungern until about 1690. The documents in our Klosters Fillipsdorf and Mariaschein are also no longer complete. A part of our archive documents had to be given to Germany in 1939 so that the ancestor's proof could be created and another part was retained by the Czech authorities and not returned to this day. For the research at that time a Mr. Karl Juppe was responsible, but in 1946, because he was a German, he left his work and the country. According to our records (or lived) this one lives in Gera - Langenberg. In 1938/39 he worked on a Bach research for a German authority. According to this inquiry, he came to the following conclusion: A Hans Veitbach (baker) had come from the county of Schwarzenburg to Bohemia and married in 1551 a Maria Anna Kastner from Lobesitz, who at the time lived in Janeegg. The Kastners belonged to the middle class of artisans in the country and possessed some pomegranates (dismantling of semi-precious stones). There were probably problems with the closure, since he was baptized catholic and then Lutheran. Since there was no Lutheran church in our room, the secession had to take place in Pilsen (there was a Lutheran priest and also a Lutheran church.
At the same time, there was a functional Lutheran church). However, Lutheran adherents in our Catholic area were very hard. According to the archivist Luppe, the family had Bach seven Children. In particular, he could show the following children: Veit b. 1551 in Janeegg (... I did it in italics). Anna Johanna b. 1553 in Janeegg, Bernhard Georg b. 1554 in? - then Juppe gives two unreadable entries - Anna Susanna b. 1563 and died 1567 in Ullersdorf, Caspar Johannes b. 1567 in Ullersdorf. Like all Lutherans, this family was also given the choice to take or emigrate the Catholic faith. It was not noted at the time the father Hans Veit was still alive. The Brothers Veit and Caspar Johannes refused to accept the Catholic faith and emigrated in 1579 as the last Lutheran from our region. About Bernhard Georg, who was also a baker, is still known that he was in a Baker's family to Pressburg. We do not have much more about the brook in the former Hungarian countryside in Bohemia. Unfortunately, we do not have any direct documentation because, as already pointed out above, they are no longer in our possession. We believe that we have answered a few questions. You can also visit us in the monastery.
May the Almighty God and Lord spread His hands over you, and bless you on all paths.
Monastery and seminary of Swjnove on October 01, 2004-10-05
What a jeweil for exploring Bach's genealogy. And what a good fortune for all ancestors in the world in matters of Johann Sebastian plus Ururopa Veit Bach.
And? Again the hint from above that Ungern lay in Bohemia? I googled four hours later. Past hundreds of Hungarians, Hungarians, Hungarians and Hungarians.
They were, in the historical church books of Gräfenroda, Arnstadt, and Wechmar, and they were, in fact, in the historical church books of Gräfenroda, Arnstadt, and Wechmar What a joy, what a find, what a result!
We recapitulate: In 1962, therefore, Rev. August Schmidt found a church book with a remarkable content in Wechmar near Gotha. To the Bachs. To Veitbach. And he sent it to Berlin as a reminder ... It was the time when Thuringia was a part of the GDR, and everything, but really everything, was centrally and centrally regulated by the SED and the Politburo. There is a document, which is given to me here, and the following text, equivalent to a contemporary photography copy:
According to this, a priest Haase wrote in his church book in 1549 that two Thuringians - one from the family of Bachs and one from the family of Obentrote - from the nearby "Grevenrude" (Gräfenroda, my note) Way ". These were Caspar Bach, and Christoph Obentrote. And they did not ask for this blessing, but for the relatives Hans Veitbach and Hans Obentrot. Pastor Schmidt even mentions explicitly that the entry is "legible". And in the next section he emphasizes the double-fledged authenticity. That was 1962.
Data Privacy, Data Privacy - a Word in a Personal Matter
1962 is not so long ago. A little over half a century first and measured on the first date on the subject of the Bache 1504 it was only yesterday, so to speak. We - or better - you have to be brave, because we know that confidential information will only be maintained if we deal with it very carefully. Back to the year 1967. It is quite self-evident that actors from these days (1967) still live among us. And there are just the good and the same - yes, I take it out - the bad guys. And they, these evil ones, I will not tell you, except the minister at that time certainly, for he is a public person, or at least he was. And that's why you do not get any proofs from me. I censored it for you, so to speak. Indeed! The good guys, however, I name by name, because they have earned themselves infinitely. From the start of research by Dr. Dr. Niemeyer in the church archives to the castle and museum director Leber in Arnstadt, which played a significant role. However, H. Who has earned our highest respect, is Karl Günter Abendroth. His performance was equally the genealogical classification of the finds, together with his research colleagues, but then - without his co-workers and for decades - the incredible perseverance, never to let loose, in order to spread the truth. Over 50 years has not led to supraregional success. 2015, however, was the decisive "turn of the times". After roughly 500 years, Abendroth and Bach again - together - again, as Hans Veitbach and his companion Hans Obentrot.
To these smart, cool and enduring Bach researchers, we - my wife and I - would like to set up an electronic monument here. It is their honor to have found this truth to the origin of the brook. Wechmar remains the cradle of the musician family. Gräfenroda, however, is the proven place of origin in which the first brooks of this family can be attributed to documents - clearly, of course they have not yet played music. To the almost unintelligible melange of Caspars, Hansens, Veits, and Hans Veitsens in all the writings, one can only say that, despite our efforts in the coming years, we should not be able to unravel all this by means of the "tons of documents" , This is - for the first time - but not important at all. For whether the one of the other son or uncle or brother was, is genealogical - at least in the case of the Bache - so not at all important. Come back again and again. If the important thing is written, documented and illustrated on the homepage, the books I want to produce still are designed and printed and hardly anything can be photographed anywhere else, then ... we go to the final completion of all musical -Bachic relations to try two of Johann Sebastian's words. Until this day in the future there is the Bach-Genealogie here always more complete: but ... - just peu à peu.
But back to the history of "lost" church books. As a reminder, this document, which is so immensely important for Bach's science, left the Pfarramt in the direction of Berlin, together with the one church book, and on January 18, 1963, to the Ministry of Culture of the GDR, 1954 had established. He was addressed to Hans Benzien, who was the minister of culture of the GDR from 1961 to 1966. Whether Benzien had ever received these documents personally, could never be clarified.
It was exciting again in 1967 - shortly before Christmas - on 10.12.1967. The correspondence is also here: the director of the Schlossmuseum Arnstadt writes to Berlin, which means he intermits and places his position as director of the museum in the balance. In the first section he refers to the Bach documents - as he calls it - and mentions the researchers Niemeyer, Lappe and Schmidt. It becomes clear that it had to be at least two original documents, so not only the church book from this year was sent out in 1549, because the director states that the valuable documents are part of Wechmar and Arnstadt. A document from the Schlossmuseum is probably not there, he simply points out that they are important to the city of Arnstadt. In a further document, she reproduces the contents of a lecture in Arnstadt on 18.12.1967 - however, it is literally stated that documents from Arnstadt, Gräfenroda and Ohrdruf were left for examination, but does not describe them in more detail.
It is clear from this letter of 10.12.1967 that there had already been correspondence in the case: Lappe writes to Berlin: "Your opinion, the three Bach - Hans, Margarete and Caspar - do not belong to JS Bach, among others Wiegand and Professor Kraft is not shared. " It follows that there were at least three more letters to Berlin, namely by Rev. Schmidt. Moreover, it is not clear whether Mrs Niemeyer to Berlin. The director ends with an invitation to his lecture on 18.12.1967 in Arnstadt and asks "to bring the documents with him at the same time" (... he means that the church books should be returned to Arnstadt on this occasion). The lecture is documented exactly one week later and consists of a mix of historical names, places, researchers at the time of the lecture, assessments and historical facts, which are a challenge even for hardcore genealogists, not least because of the frequent names , It is in the highest degree confusing and clear, it is really only for two handful enthusiasts exciting, who at the same time also want to explore the truth. On this page about Veitbach from Ungern, I therefore only summarize the extract for you:
The lecturer is, therefore, the director of the Schloss-und Heimatmuseum in 1967. He lists the historically-defined historical documents as old church books and stand books. Had it been only two historical publications, he would have spoken of "a church book and a court book." So it is at least three historical books that left Arnstadt, Wechmar and Gräfenroda. It is now apparent that the speaker had also requested the return of the originals several times. We can therefore start from at least eight letters sent to Berlin in this matter. Next, the speaker complains that the recipient did not even get an answer - neither negative nor positive, according to the wording. He even suspects an additional historical letter in Berlin, which was sent from another side and was not returned.
Now the prominent reference to a visit is the week before. A visitor of the ministry was in Arnstadt. The brothers' story in Gräfenroda and Wechmar with three brothers and sisters, and the migration to Pilsen and Preßnitz, and their return from Bohemia, had to be re-written with the Bach research of a Frau Niemeyer, a parishioner Schmidt and a Herr Lappe. I'm too small to say, there were some crap written (... he means the Bach biographers until 1967, my comment). Think about it, I'm going against Albert Schweitzer's letter Know the importance of Albert Schweitzer in the GDR, so that everything is the same in the genealogy of the Bache and we have a stable Bachbild in the GDR. " Again, because it is exciting?
Hurray, Gräfenroda is Bachort. Well finally. Its about time. The people there have waited 500 years for this. What does not find everything, so is the search for the Veitbach: whose parents, where they were, disappear like church books, and that Bach in Gräfenroda played the organ for two hours. And? He praised the weather.
Why, however, one never returned these church books and stand books to Arnstadt, Wechmar, and Gräfenroda, will no longer be clear. From the time of reunification, these documents are regarded as missing or missing. At the very least, however, one can clearly see that not only the research community of Niemeyer, Kraft, Lappe & Schmidt was on exactly the right track, but that this sensation was recognized in Berlin as well. Otherwise the documents could have been given back easily. Which, in turn, confirms the authenticity of the church books which are no longer to be used for research as a further indication. The reproduction of the entries is already scientifically precise enough. But in a round of clues and traditions, the affirmation, which is due to the non-return and the obvious destruction of the invaluable documents, is worth gold.
This four-year search was a success. Thus, as far as the key words Veit Bach, Hans Bach, Pressburg + Ungern.
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